Hazyness is NEIPA/Hazy IPAs

[Darren Waszkinel]

Hey all

I am a new brewer brewer (2 brews under my belt using the Brewzilla and Fermzilla). My latest brew is a Juicy bits clone.
I am at the end of fermentation and I can already see that the beer will not be as Hazy as the ones I have been enjoying.
I am chasing that super hazyness and thickness/body on the beer

My recipe for the NEIPA calls out
79.2% of Pale malt
7.4% of flaked oats
7.4% of flaked wheat
7.9% of Carapils

From what I have been reading, there are multiple factors that contribute to the haze like
- adjunct selection and the amount of
- hopping schedule and amount
- Yeast selection and how much it can keep stuff in suspension

I am all for experimenting but I wanted to ask all you fine people if you have nailed this type of super hazyness in a NEIPA and if you have any advice ?

I am thinking of bumping up the oats and wheats to 10% each and reducing the base malt but I would love to hear all of your feedback/advice on this topic

Thabkyou all

 

[MHB]

When making White beer (the Belgian style) its not uncommon to add a little plain wheat flour, probably just a couple of teaspoons full would be enough.
Tip - Don't just dump it in or it will probably just form a dumpling and not do much, better to put the flour into a sift or strained and dust it over the wort during the last 10 minutes or so of the boil.
Funny but so much of good brewing practice is about minimising haze, then along comes NEPIA.
Mark

 

[Dan Pratt]

Hi,

One of my favourtie styles is the belgian wheat beer but after many many makes I found it would always be clear in the keg after 2 - 3wks. What i found was that when I changed my mash rest temps this improved the haze formation that stayed in the beer.

I add this as MHB will be able to explain this better why ?

Mash that drops clear :

63c / 45mins
71c / 15mins
78c / 10mins ( mash out )

Mash that remained cloudy :

63c / 60mins
78c / 10mins ( mash out )

This may help with getting more haze in the final beer.

For the NEIPA style, i have found that 15% wheat and 15% oats along with a metric F tonne of hops ie 10-15g per L will get that closer to being "hazy"

 

[Danscraftbeer]

I've usually used around 15% Rolled Oats, that with heavy dry hopping, and Hop Stands if that's an option. Total hops used can be up to 18g/l. That creates haze that will last for months if your NEIPA will last that long. I haven't used flour to create haze it seems unnatural, like a cheat option just for looks sake. I'm sure some of the commercial products do. I guess it would make for a much paler color of haze too that can explain why many are such pale yellow. I prefer mine orange amber, and Hazy.

 

[onemorecell]

Please don't ever add flour... ever...

What yeast are you using?

 

[yankinoz]

Carapils in that recipe is superfluous. Use more oats instead.

The one NEIPA I made with 13% oats and a little wheat (as 65% DME) poured with a head that grew out of the largest mugs and then attacked Tokyo. The beer hidden underneath was hazy.

 

[dibbz]

On hazys, my magic ratio is
68% pilsner/pale
16% malted wheat
16% rolled oats

This is a good read: https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/wp...bestpractices-Biotransformation-digital-1.pdf

It fails to mention you also need hops with higher levels of glycosides, like the juicy bits cheater hops do.

IMHO the best hazys are still dry. It's not un-common to co-pitch a high attenuating yeast with a high beta-glucosidase activity yeast.

 

[citizensnips]

Don't forget alcohol is the biggest contributor to body in a beer so take that into consideration if you're brewing a 5-6% hazy and expecting it to taste like a double.

Also consider lactose if you haven't already - some love it and others don't but it will definitely contribute to that mouthfeel you're looking for.

And yes I would up your oats and wheat to 10%

 

[JDW81]

Please don't ever add flour... ever...

I'm not so sure. If Mark suggests something might be beneficial for brewing, I'd probably listen.

There aren't too many people left on this forum who command the respect of even the most experienced brewers, but thankfully Mark still contributes.

JD

 

[Schikitar]

Whitelabs London Fog Ale will give you the result you are looking for, that and a dry hop charge right at the start of fermentation.. just remember with NEIPA's there is an dramatic increase in perceived bitterness, so I usually target half the IBUs I actually want in the recipe (20 IBUs tastes closer to 40 IBUs if you take my meaning).

 

[MHB]

I'm not so sure. If Mark suggests something might be beneficial for brewing, I'd probably listen.

There aren't too many people left on this forum who command the respect of even the most experienced brewers, but thankfully Mark still contributes.

JD

Thanks, truth be told its the amount I don't know that scares me, I talk to people who know so much it really is frightening, best I could claim is a decent grasp of the basics.

What causes haze in beer.
Protein - usually comes from crappy malt, adjunct, poor mash temperature rest choices, short boils.
Starch - large amounts of unmalted adjunct (raw grain), mash temperatures (see Glucan Protein Rests), overlarge or too hot sparges.
Yeast - as in Hefeweizen, some yeasts just don't flock, they leave the beer looking cloudy
Hop oils in suspension- pretty self explanatory, bit like milk, clear fat globules in suspension, looks white because of light diffraction. Large amounts of hops late will add large amounts (relatively) of hop oils, especially if you use high oil hops.

All the main causes have issues, like yeast haze will bring a bready yeasty flavour, if you don't want that, choose a different yeast. Enough protein to form haze will make for pretty unstable beer (see colloidal stability) tends to give a "flabby" flavour and makes for a lifeless unexciting beer.
As posted above Haze is usually a fault (with a few obvious exceptions) I suspect any hazy beer is going to be inherently unstable and bets drunk young and fast.
Mark

 

[fdsaasdf]

Agree, any hazy beer is going to be unstable and fresh is best.

My hazy IPAs work well with anywhere between 10-20% of flaked oats in the mash. I also make the massive hop addition with yeast pitch (using something like Burlington Ale yeast or London Fog), and never cold crash for more than 24hrs.

 

[onemorecell]

I'm not so sure. If Mark suggests something might be beneficial for brewing, I'd probably listen.

There aren't too many people left on this forum who command the respect of even the most experienced brewers, but thankfully Mark still contributes.

JD

he is extremely knowledgeable but all due respect to him, i dont think he makes a lot of neipa...
happy to be corrected by him though.

 

[MHB]

Quite right, generally I don't even like them all that much. Have had a couple that tasted pretty good but find most of them pretty one dimensional (all Hops). I prefer beer that has a balance of malt hops and yeast flavours. Feel the same about most IIPA's, then had the chance to drink a fresh Green Flash Palate Wrecker, made with 23g/L of hops. Its a stunning, balanced beer with lots going on other than just hops. A very creditable example of a style that is hard to get right.

That doesn't mean I don't understand them, a bit like 1A American light lager, don't like it, don't want to make it, do understand it and am quite capable of making one.
The one thing about NEIPA that bothers me the most is their inherent instability. What I'm most interested in is building one that is much more stable, full flavoured, complex with all the key taste components that make it unique - and that wont turn to dishwater in two weeks.
Mark

 

[dibbz]

Stop typing to get haze from protein and unfiltered yeast if you want a more stable beer.

 

[MHB]

Agreed - well 100% on Protein
Which leaves Starch and Hops (pretty much)
Lets say we aren't going to use much more than 25g/l, is that enough to throw the amount of haze people are looking for?
Lots of adjunct (Flaked Oats and Wheat talked about a lot) without a Glucan/Protein rest are going to throw lots of all sorts, Oats and Wheat come in at around 13% crude protein, so maybe a cereal cook is the only way to get the goods without excess destabilising high MW protein in solution.

dibbz - I'm not trying to niggle, I'm trying to understand the style better, look at how people are brewing it and what happens post packaging. NEPIA is a very new style (or fad maybe) it has some very interesting features and presents some very real challenges for brewers. At present there appears to be a real scattergun approach to resolving them.
Mark

 

[The Mack]

My standard approach for 23L no chill batch:

84% Ale malt (Or Gladfields light lager)
8% Flaked wheat
8% Flaked Oats

Mash at 53 for 15, 66 for 60, 78 for 15.
Brewbrite and yeast nutrient at whirlpool

Cube hop @ 4g/L @ ~80c

Day 2/3 Hop addition @ 3g/L

Day 6/7 Hop addition @ 3g/L

By Day 10 I start chilling down to 3c over 3/4 days, closed transfer to purged keg.


Plenty hazy (not so thick light doesn't get through), still no signs of oxidation after 3 weeks in the keg (longest they last) with plenty of juiciness and aroma still remaining.

It's a style I have definitely come around to, probably more so because I am brewing them how I like them as opposed to some commercial examples that have just been meh.