Having trouble harnessing hop flavour

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Ben Davies

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I place a sheet of alfoil over the top of my mash once stired in to try and keep in heat and for less o2 ingress.
 

Schikitar

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I place a sheet of alfoil over the top of my mash once stired in to try and keep in heat and for less o2 ingress.
Sorry, I miswrote my earlier comment, I leave the lid off once I've mashed out, not mashed in, lids on and my urn is all tucked up in a sleeping bag during the mash! Anyway, I digress..
 

The Mack

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I think the advice to cover the kettle was meaning during the chilling process, not during the mash (and unsure what effect oxygen ingress during the mash has on hop aroma).. If you are using an immersion chiller, a lid with a slot cutout to accommodate the inlet/outlet will do a reasonable job- a clean towel over the top will add another layer of protection.

The biotransformation of hop compounds also adds aroma, albeit different to dry hopping post krausen (from memory geraniol is converted into citronellol but maybe vice versa, I just had a look but can't find the reference in my folders so can't remember exactly).

Something I alluded to in my last post but didn't really specifically address is the potential oxidation at bottling/ kegging, if you can reduce oxygen exposure you can help retain aroma. If you are looking to reduce hop debris into the cube I'd suggest either LupiN2 or hop hash, both have higher AA% and less vegetive matter so a little will go a long way.

When no-chilling for hoppy beers, the only way to get the aromatics I like is to whirlpool, add brew bright, let sit for ~20 mins, get a 10 or 15L cube and fill that for no chill, and rapid chill the left over wort. Usually I would add another hop charge to the rapid chill wort and pitch the yeast as soon as at temp. Because it is a smaller volume to chill, it takes next to no time.
The next day it is ok to add the cube contents (all of it) to the now fermenting beer. Dry hop after fermentation is complete, or right at the end. Plenty of aroma using fresh, well stored hops.
 

Schikitar

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I guess my question re the lid was more to do with why the lid is put on when chilling..? I assume it is more to do with keeping wild yeast/bacteria out rather than keeping anything in? I thought having the lid on could lead to DMS issues or is that not an issue post-boil?

he biotransformation of hop compounds also adds aroma, albeit different to dry hopping post krausen
This is the NEIPA approach is it not? I've not tried it but I'll give it a crack on the next brew - one thing though, doesn't this add hop haze to the brew? I have nothing against haze but say I'm doing a red IPA, they look a bit off when hazy..

the potential oxidation at bottling/ kegging, if you can reduce oxygen exposure you can help retain aroma
I only just started kegging recently and I've been doing my best to purge the kegs pre and post filling, it definitely helps compared to the leftovers that I bottle. However, it's hop flavour I'm more concerned about, not aroma as much (though I know the two are intertwined)..

and rapid chill the left over wort.
Yeah, I guess that's another way to do it, similar to the Argon Method but a different approach. I don't currently have an immersion chiller so I'm keen to explore methods that don't necessarily require me to spend any more $ at this point - Fathers Day isn't too far away though ;)
 

Rocker1986

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Chilling doesn't suit my schedule otherwise I'd probably have done it by now for hoppy beers at least. I'm often kegging and pitching a fresh batch in the middle of the week when I can't do a full brew day because of work. Lately I've tried cube hopping, along with generous flameout and 10 minute additions. It has improved things for sure. I did a really nice one recently with Citra, Cascade and Simcoe, that was even before I started cube hopping. Obviously quick chilling would be the best way though.
 

The Mack

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I assume it is more to do with keeping wild yeast/bacteria out rather than keeping anything in? I thought having the lid on could lead to DMS issues or is that not an issue post-boil?

DMS is driven off during boiling, the small amount that may be present in the condensation while cooling will not be detectable under a hop-laden IPA, you would be hard pressed to detect it in a pils or lager even (proving you've had a good boil for long enough). You're right it is to keep foreign things getting into your rapidly cooling wort.


This is the NEIPA approach is it not? ... doesn't this add hop haze to the brew?

I think this is a scaled down version of a NEIPA hopping schedule, I.e- Hops at whirlpool, dry hop when transferring wort , dry hop at end of fermentation. NEIPA seem to use lower flocc'ing yeast, higher hopping schedules/multiple dry hops during fermentation, multiple dry hopping additions post fermentation, and I think some even add flour (?) to get that hazey look. Making sure your brew water has enough calcium will help precipitation, kettle finings Eg Brew bright, whir floc,etc etc, good whirlpool for a nice trub cone, use a high floc yeast, polyclar at the end of fermentation, gelatine/biofine at kegging SHOULD eliminate any haze. Look at some of the nice APIA's, they can be clear as and still be pumped full of hops.


However, it's hop flavour I'm more concerned about, not aroma as much (though I know the two are intertwined)..

You nailed it, a lot of flavour is perceived through aromatics, but I can only speak from personal experience when I say that getting my CaSO4 additions right (mash and kettle additions) gave a sort of crisp "bite" to the bitterness and flavour of the hops. Mashing for a drier finish also accentuates the hops- to counteracting the malt- especially if you're putting crystal in there.




I don't currently have an immersion chiller so I'm keen to explore methods that don't necessarily require me to spend any more $ at this point

Living in Tasmania I suspect your tap water would be reasonably cold, if you have a bath- a stockpot in a bath of cold water will get you below isomerisation temps pretty quickly, if you have a pool I know people that will cube and put the cube in the pool and get to pitching temps in ~30 mins.
 

Ben Davies

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I recently brewed a barleywine and decided to make a cube hopped second runnings beer out of left over sugars left in the large amount of barley used in the mash. I cube hopped the second runnings beer with 30g of galaxy (biotransformation) the resulting beer im guzzling atm has a persistant haze that matches my expectation of bio hops.

So just a hazy thought on when to add them cube hops as im sure they contribute some persistant haze to the beer.
 

Schikitar

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if you have a pool I know people that will cube and put the cube in the pool and get to pitching temps in ~30 mins.
The water down here at the moment is definitely cold (we have summers more like Melbourne but far colder winters). We do have a pool and I have actually put the cube in the pool to try and rapid chill before - that would definitely work more quickly this time of year however it would require me to go clean the pool - I wouldn't put anything in there right now! Haha!

Thanks for the other comments, lots of great knowledge and advice here that I'm keen to put into practice and report back on! Cheers!
 

Rocker1986

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Can't even notice DMS in no chilled beers, of all styles including a XXXX bitter rip off. If it was gonna show up anywhere, that would be the one I'd expect to taste it in.
 

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