GUTEN

[Reg Holt]

That sparge time may be relevant on a 3V system, but a sparge on this system can take a mere 10-15 mins and still give fantastic efficiency.
Regarding pulling tannins from the grain bed during your sparge - if you're doing that in any appreciable amount, then you're either sparging way too hot, have stuffed up your pH, or must have pretty much ground your malt in to almost complete flour (in which case you won'be be sparging, because it will certainly be a stuck/fully compacted bed).

As @FarsideOfCrazy pointed out, there really isn't any appeal to no-sparging here - you get lower overall efficiency and you have to modify the equipment to be able to fit a full batch. Sparging is stupidly easy on this - just heat the whole volume of water, then drain off the sparge water in to a bucket and let it sit until you need it. You don't even need to try to keep it warm or anything because it doesn't matter. Hell, you could probably just pour the entire bucket over the grain bed at once and still get better efficiency than no-sparging.
(For the record, I'm a former no-sparger from my previous BIAB setup and I loved it then. I am just completely convinced that it is worthwhile sparging with these systems)

I was just answering FOC post, I sparge, I sparge slow, its not just only about efficiency it is about tannins as well. As I said I will be trying a "no sparge" WEAL has tweaked my interest, there is no modifications needed, today I bought some threaded bar and 2 nuts from Bunnings, this will go the full width of the malt pipe and sit on the retaining lip, while also being my lifting handle. When I try the "no sparge" on the Guten I will be adding about $4.00 more worth of base malt to the grain bill, this will make up the loss in efficiency, I don't have to think about heating up sparge water and I know I will have less tannins than if I had sparged, that's what I call stupidly simple. If anyone asks for advice I will give it, if they don't want to follow it that's fine by me.
If you want to just pour the full bucket of sparge water over the grain bed that's fine by me too, but that is something I will not be trying.

How did you arrive at 15% Reg?

That is just the starting point, the efficiency I got on the first batch was 86% so 15% extra base malt should be about right.

 

[user 37368]

The best thing about no sparge is second runnings.

 

[Mya]

If you no chill the helix seems to work but if you chill then drain expect a bit of pain. Seems the cold break blocks the helix. I've only had it drain once out of about 10 brews easily ( I chill). It does do a good job of filtering hops if you can get it to work.

I've done 2 brews with the helix, I whirlpooled both times and did a cold break as well and didn't have the helix block at all. The trub was nicely piled up in the middle and also about 80% up the height of the helix so only the top of the helix was actually draining but it still drained remarkably fast.

I put hops in a bag which might reduce the efficiency of the hop transfer but means I can cold break and only end up with a very thin layer of trub in the fermenter after a cold crash and can drain out down to the last 0.5L in the fermenter still getting clear beer!

 

[wide eyed and legless]

I've done 2 brews with the helix, I whirlpooled both times and did a cold break as well and didn't have the helix block at all. The trub was nicely piled up in the middle and also about 80% up the height of the helix so only the top of the helix was actually draining but it still drained remarkably fast.

I put hops in a bag which might reduce the efficiency of the hop transfer but means I can cold break and only end up with a very thin layer of trub in the fermenter after a cold crash and can drain out down to the last 0.5L in the fermenter still getting clear beer!

So what are you describing as 'did a cold break'?

 

[Mya]

Whirlfloc during the boil and chilling to 30 degC with a copper immersion chiller

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Whirlfloc during the boil and chilling to 30 degC with a copper immersion chiller

Sometimes the helix will work but rarely, when it has been chilled, if you continue to use the helix and rapid chill it is a good idea to have something close by to push in between the spirals to get it to start emptying, may have to be done a couple of times.

 

[malt and barley blues]

I was just answering FOC post, I sparge, I sparge slow, its not just only about efficiency it is about tannins as well. As I said I will be trying a "no sparge" WEAL has tweaked my interest, there is no modifications needed, today I bought some threaded bar and 2 nuts from Bunnings, this will go the full width of the malt pipe and sit on the retaining lip, while also being my lifting handle. When I try the "no sparge" on the Guten I will be adding about $4.00 more worth of base malt to the grain bill, this will make up the loss in efficiency, I don't have to think about heating up sparge water and I know I will have less tannins than if I had sparged, that's what I call stupidly simple. If anyone asks for advice I will give it, if they don't want to follow it that's fine by me.
If you want to just pour the full bucket of sparge water over the grain bed that's fine by me too, but that is something I will not be trying.


That is just the starting point, the efficiency I got on the first batch was 86% so 15% extra base malt should be about right.

Cheers Reg, good idea with the threaded bar.

 

[goatchop41]

there is no modifications needed, today I bought some threaded bar and 2 nuts from Bunnings, this will go the full width of the malt pipe and sit on the retaining lip, while also being my lifting handle.

Uuuhhhhhh that's exactly what a modification is, yes? Altering the malt pipe to block the handle holes is a modification...

I don't have to think about heating up sparge water and I know I will have less tannins than if I had sparged.

Even more simple is understanding that you don't have to heat the sparge water at all. Cold sparging is exactly the same as warm.

You keep talking about tannins like they're an ever-present bogeyman in the brewing process. Unless you're stuffing up your process by having a very poor pH, milling incredibly fine, or sparging with pretty much boiling water, then it really isn't an issue. The amount that you're pulling from the grain with a normal sparge under normal mash conditions with even a half decent crush is negligible, and certainly not enough to be detectable.
The issue is that you may be giving more novice users the impression that they have to be really worried about tannin levels in their wort which, as mentioned above, isn't likely a real concern for most brewers unless they're really stuffing up somewhere. Chill out on your concern about the scary tannins

 

[Cian Doyle]

Finished my first all grain brew today, went surprisingly easy, in the fermenting fridge now at 18 degrees. Fingers crossed for the morning and now planning my next brew. Thanks for the help.

 

[awfulknauful]

I have got some all thread, it is galvanised will this be a problem?

 

[wide eyed and legless]

I have got some all thread, it is galvanised will this be a problem?

Not with the galvanising as such but the bare mild steel end will rust.

 

[Cian Doyle]

Not with the galvanising as such but the bare mild steel end will rust.

Oops, I got galvanized, will change it. Fermentation has taken off nicely, I have read varying opinions about harvesting yeast. My next brew calls for a different yeast, how long will the yeast I have now (US05) last if I leave 25 mm of fermented wort over it?

 

[malt and barley blues]

That should be fine for a couple of weeks.

 

[Wobbly74]

I'd avoid galv myself, particularly in an acidic environment.

 

[wide eyed and legless]

I'd avoid galv myself, particularly in an acidic environment.

Nothing wrong with a bit of zinc, good for you and the yeast. If doing a 21 litre no sparge the level will not come up to level of the hole 23 litre it will. To be on the safe side s/steel would be the go, mild steel and s/steel is not a good mix.

 

[lespaul]

Goatchops on the money, shouldn't get astringency unless you're really giving the grain a hard time (pH, oversparge, high temps). http://beersmith.com/blog/2015/10/2...ains-oversparging-and-hot-sparging-your-beer/
I'd really struggle to do full volume without sparging, haven't bothered to block the holes though. So I have the option of filling with water or sparging. Seems for little effort I don't have to waste all the sugar I've already got. Each to their own though!

On another note, brew day today went much smoother. Still getting some mild scorching, or more like a brown crud buildup on the concealed element, which is something I guess I'll have to live with. Other than that was an easy brew day.

 

[Ballaratguy]

First brew completed on Saturday’s went really well & hit all the figures well but I stuffed up on the timing of the hops. No burning on the element either (boiled on full power) just some greying on the base but overall I’m really impressed with the Guten.
The helix if awesome too made a very clear wort even if I did forget to whirlpool
Question for the more experienced guys:
The instructions say to NOT run the pump during the boil. I thought that it made for a more even temperature through the wort by having the pump circulating the wort
What do you guys do?

 

[wide eyed and legless]

The turbulence of the boil will even out the temperature. I am thinking of getting a second pump, connect it to the tap then back into the kettle, (this will be for using an immersion chiller) hopefully that will stop any break material blocking the helix.

 

[Ballaratguy]

The turbulence of the boil will even out the temperature. I am thinking of getting a second pump, connect it to the tap then back into the kettle, (this will be for using an immersion chiller) hopefully that will stop any break material blocking the helix.

I’ve actually got a second pump which I had for my robo V1 I also hook it to the tap for when I hot cube. When I had it on the robobrew I ran it all the time

 

[Ballaratguy]

I may also add that so far I’m happy with the quality of the Guten as against the problems that they seem to be having with the robo’s & the GF’s

 

[wide eyed and legless]

I may also add that so far I’m happy with the quality of the Guten as against the problems that they seem to be having with the robo’s & the GF’s

That is why the Guten has gone to a 2 year warranty.

 

[krz]

......
The instructions say to NOT run the pump during the boil. .....

I didn't know that, Ive been running mine all the time and even use it to pump into the fermenter.
I wonder why you shouldn't use it during the boil?

 

[wide eyed and legless]

I didn't know that, Ive been running mine all the time and even use it to pump into the fermenter.
I wonder why you shouldn't use it during the boil?

If you are using the pump to pump into the fermentor then you are also transferring whatever is in the kettle. You have no screen over the pump intake, yes you can buy one but it doesn't filter out unwanted crud from the boil.

 

[krz]

If you are using the pump to pump into the fermentor then you are also transferring whatever is in the kettle. You have no screen over the pump intake, yes you can buy one but it doesn't filter out unwanted crud from the boil.

ok, thanks WEAL, I was more worried about temp.
I use hop spider, i whirlpool and I also use a household sieve (fine mesh) when pumping to the fermentor. not much gets thru the pump.

 

[goatchop41]

I didn't know that, Ive been running mine all the time and even use it to pump into the fermenter.
I wonder why you shouldn't use it during the boil?

Mostly because there's absolutely no point to using it during the boil. The whole point of recirculation during the mash is to clarify the wort and help with getting an even temperature through the grain bed. During the boil all of the liquid is at or very, very close to boiling point, so that negates the need for temperature management, and there's no grain bed to filter through for further clarification of the wort. Therefore there is absolutely no reason why the pump would need to be on at any point in the boil.

The other thing to consider is whether or not the pump is actually temperature rated to deal with boiling wort, which I have no idea about. I'm sure that KK lackey, sorry, I mean insider/overly loyal customer/good friend of KK WEAL could help us all out there with some info...

 

[ABG]

Therefore there is absolutely no reason why the pump would need to be on at any point in the boil

I have a Robobrew and always put the pump on for the last 15 minutes of the boil (I checked that it's rated for boiling water). That way I can run the pump when I start running cold water through my immersion chiller knowing everything is sanitised. Having the pump running while the chiller is in action drops the temperature much faster. Of course, if you're just throwing your wort into a cube, then that becomes irrelevant.

Off topic, why is there so much Robobrew bashing on this thread? It's really tiresome and far from entirely factual. I've got an R3 and run over 30 batches absolutely problem free. Both the Guten and Robobrew are fantastic all in one brew units that have opened up possibilities to AG home brewers like no other products else previously. There's just no point in rubbishing one product or the other unless there are serious and persistent issues. Both on this forum and its competitor, there are heaps of Robobrew users like me who haven't had issues. Let's face it, at this price point, you're not going to get something that has the QA of a Grainfather.

Edit: Typo

 

[malt and barley blues]

The other thing to consider is whether or not the pump is actually temperature rated to deal with boiling wort, which I have no idea about. I'm sure that KK lackey, sorry, I mean insider/overly loyal customer/good friend of KK WEAL could help us all out there with some info...

I don't think WEAL's or KK's advice is needed for this one, anyone who has a Guten and read the instructions, it clearly states under, Circulation use of pump. Circulation of pump not necessary during boil process. Excessive heating of pump may cause damage.
As the pumps of the Robobrew and Guten are the same and Keg Land states it is OK to run the pump during boil I think I would be erring on the side of caution and not running the pump simply because there is no need.

 

[goatchop41]

anyone who has a Guten and read the instructions, it clearly states under, Circulation use of pump. Circulation of pump not necessary during boil process. Excessive heating of pump may cause damage.

Thanks for the clarification. My Guten was one of the 'direct from China' jobbies, before KK started bringing them in, and the instructions that came with it are very scant. I had assumed that they would be better with KK selling them now (hopefully they've made their own instruction booklet!), but I wasn't 100% sure

 

[goatchop41]

IOff topic, why is there so much Robobrew bashing on this thread? It's really tiresome and far from entirely factual. I've got an R3 and run over 30 batches absolutely problem free. Both the Guten and Robobrew are fantastic all in one brew units that have opened up possibilities to AG home brewers like no other products else previously. There's just no point in rubbishing one product or the other unless there are serious and persistent issues. Both on this forum and its competitor, there are heaps of Robobrew users like me who haven't had issues. Let's face it, at this price point, you're not going to get something that has the QA of a Grainfather.

Just speaking personally, from looking on online forums and facebook groups, RB problems are just much more common and severe than Guten issues. The worst that I've seen for Gutens is a few elements burn out (from using them on max wattage all of the time), a couple of PCBs malfunction, and the rocker switches failing (which is a common one).
RB failures, well you've got the really common burning out of the circuit board due to it being crap quality and getting overheated, pump failures (including a run of people last year who had blocked pumps in their first couple of brews due to swarf from manufacturing being stuck in there!!), issues with stuck mashes and sparges due to the double bottom screens. The list goes on.

Hopefully KL have sorted the QA issues out with their Brewzilla, but until proven otherwise, the quality and QA of the Guten seems to be much better

 

[wide eyed and legless]

I have a Robobrew and always put the pump on for the last 15 minutes of the boil (I checked that it's rated for boiling water). That way I can run the pump when I start running cold water through my immersion chiller knowing everything is sanitised. Having the pump running while the chiller is in action drops the temperature much faster. Of course, if you're just throwing your wort into a cube, then that becomes irrelevant.

Off topic, why is there so much Robobrew bashing on this thread? It's really tiresome and far from entirely factual. I've got an R3 and run over 30 batches absolutely problem free. Both the Guten and Robobrew are fantastic all in one brew units that have opened up possibilities to AG home brewers like no other products else previously. There's just no point in rubbishing one product or the other unless there are serious and persistent issues. Both on this forum and its competitor, there are heaps of Robobrew users like me who haven't had issues. Let's face it, at this price point, you're not going to get something that has the QA of a Grainfather.

Edit: Typo

The Robobrew 3.1 is OK, it is the models before, I mentioned it in the Guten v Robobrew 3 the circuit board was crap in the 3. The 3.1 they have improved the circuit board, this should have been done before the Robobrew 3 was released. But it has cost Keg Land money rectifying it. Fleabag put up a thread showing the circuit boards, the 3.1 is a vast improvement to the 3.

Next week I will be reviewing the Brau Wolf another SVB from China there are 2 versions the 40 and the 60 litre. I will be reviewing the 60 litre. What I would like to see is to go up a notch and the units to mark time until a button is pressed to continue, much like the Brau Meister. Mash finishes, wait until the button is pressed ready to boil.