GUTEN

[wide eyed and legless]

A Golden Bitter brewed today, early start early finish, all parameters hit, clean up sprayed the jet down through the pump nothing coming out of the top. I have mentioned before that with a full volume mash the switching off of the pump has to be done simultaneously as the choke on the return pipe to prevent suck back. Forgot to do it this brew, so put the jet down the return pipe expecting to see some grain come out. Out popped a large cockroach, beats me how it got in, last night I ran the pump for a 1/2 hour at 70 C with sodium perborate, rinsed and filled up with 32 litres of water for to-days brew. Baffled.

 

[Reg Holt]

First of all I have to say this piece of kit is AWESOME. Why I have stuck with a 3 vessel for so long is beyond me.
I have to thank everyone who has put input into this thread, I have taken in every bit of useful information. I brewed an Oatmeal Stout today and everything worked out perfectly, I was expecting to have to adjust a few things ongoing to my next brew but every thing was spot on. Thanks guys.

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Glad it worked out well Reg.

 

[lespaul]

God, I wish I had your luck Reg!!... I'm 4 brews in and haven't hit anything yet. Hard work

 

[Reg Holt]

God, I wish I had your luck Reg!!... I'm 4 brews in and haven't hit anything yet. Hard work

Nothing to do with luck, there is a stack of info on this thread, what problems have you had lespaul?

 

[lespaul]

Grain was too fine and didn't recirculate. Really bad scorching on a few brews. Really high efficiency (80%) on my beer before last and really low efficiency on my last beer (66%). Incorrect sized malt pipe that was letting grain in the boil. Still having some minor issues getting the right crush, something that I've not had problems with before.
Nothing that isn't easily fixed and hopefully all kinks are worked out! Just some really frustrating brew days. Should make those easy brew days all the sweeter

 

[Reg Holt]

Grain was too fine and didn't recirculate. Really bad scorching on a few brews. Really high efficiency (80%) on my beer before last and really low efficiency on my last beer (66%). Incorrect sized malt pipe that was letting grain in the boil. Still having some minor issues getting the right crush, something that I've not had problems with before.
Nothing that isn't easily fixed and hopefully all kinks are worked out! Just some really frustrating brew days. Should make those easy brew days all the sweeter

Are you anywhere near the Brisbane area lespaul I would be more than happy to help you out.

 

[lespaul]

Nah thanks for the help but I should have it covered [emoji106]

 

[goatchop41]

Grain was too fine and didn't recirculate. Really bad scorching on a few brews. Really high efficiency (80%) on my beer before last and really low efficiency on my last beer (66%). Incorrect sized malt pipe that was letting grain in the boil. Still having some minor issues getting the right crush, something that I've not had problems with before.
Nothing that isn't easily fixed and hopefully all kinks are worked out! Just some really frustrating brew days. Should make those easy brew days all the sweeter

I initially had some issues with crush too. What helped me was working out what was too coarse, then gradually working my way along one notch on the measurement on my mill gap for each brew, until I hit a crush that became too fine, then I dialled it back one notch.
I also started conditioning my malt before milling, which has allowed me to mill a bit more finely that I had been able to previously, without getting a stuck recirc or stuck sparge

 

[lespaul]

I tried grain conditioning last brew and was surprised how much more intact the husk was. I didnt stir on mash in because I was reading about low DO, but I think it's what's given me the low efficiency. I had the impression that reciculation was supposed to break up dough balls, especially as I mashed in at 45°. Maybe that's just with the pump rests which I didn't use?
My last system was a home made brau with one of the mathos controllers I got in a bulk buy, and Ive got to say it was superior to this system... Just a shame the board fried. Could go much finer on the crush and had much more confidence in walking away during the mash and overall consistency.
This was the first beer that I had clear runnings during the mash, and had the pump valve only partially closed for it to reach equilibrium so that must be a good sign!
Fingers crossed for the next brew!!

 

[Cian Doyle]

Will be doing my first all grain brew on this unit at the weekend, was nervous on getting the crush right but will be taking into consideration pnorkle's and goatchops advice on test runs through the mill.
Still got every confidence I can pull it off, nothing fancy, no step mashing and will be trying the no sparge. Its a bit like waiting for Christmas now.

 

[Reg Holt]

Will be doing my first all grain brew on this unit at the weekend, was nervous on getting the crush right but will be taking into consideration pnorkle's and goatchops advice on test runs through the mill.
Still got every confidence I can pull it off, nothing fancy, no step mashing and will be trying the no sparge. Its a bit like waiting for Christmas now.

Mate if you are doing a no sparge don't be to worried about the crush, as long as it is not to fine of course, going to fine and you could encounter unwanted tannins, as long as when you crush the grain and can't see any whole grains in the mix then you are right to go. Any floury bits that get recirculated will end up on top of the grain bed. I can understand your concerns before your first foray into all grain, I guarantee get a few brews under your belt you will wonder at the apprehension you are feeling now was all about.
I have been brewing for years, but I still get that Christmas morning feeling when I go out in the morning to check that the fermentation has started. And guess what Santa has never let me down once.

 

[Cian Doyle]

Cheers Reg, feel like I just need a work out and a rub down now before the big day.

 

[Reg Holt]

Cheers Reg, feel like I just need a work out and a rub down now before the big day.

After you have had a successful brew day, which you will, you can go back on the sidelines and let the yeast take over.

 

[goatchop41]

as long as it is not to fine of course, going to fine and you could encounter unwanted tannins

You'd have to grind realllllllllly fine to run in to this, wouldn't you?

 

[Reg Holt]

Correct, if the mill is set to fine and the husks start getting ground then tannins from the grind could be expected.

 

[awfulknauful]

Reg I am interested to know more about the crush of the grain, I havent done a no sparge but I do have a Guten.

 

[Reg Holt]

As mentioned earlier, crush the grain so there are no visible un- cracked grain, the best thing about no sparge is with the extra volume of liquor you will not be compacting the grain bed, you will have what is known as a grain bed in a fluid state. This will lead to a better extraction of the sugars leading to a better efficiency. In saying that, because you will not be extracting the remaining sugars out with a sparge, the grain bill will have to increase. I will be doing one and I will be starting off at a 15% increase in the base malt and work it from there, or as has been suggested by WEAL, lower the projected efficiency and work it out with whichever program you use. For myself I will be increasing the base malt. It's a bit of 6 of one and half a dozen of the other.

 

[awfulknauful]

Thanks Reg will be giving this a try.

 

[FarsideOfCrazy]

I don't really see the point of 'no sparge'. It's not really that hard. If you're already heating up that much water drain some into a pot or insulated vessel then sparge while getting the wort up to boil.

I have a portable hot plate that i sit a 12litre pot with my already heated to 66c sparge water in which only takes about 10 minutes to heat to 75c for mash out sparge temp. The malt pipe has to draining whilst I'm raising the kettle to boil.

I can't see any major time saving doing no sparge. So other than using more grain I'm a bit stumped as to why this is a method that I'd want to use.

 

[Reg Holt]

I don't really see the point of 'no sparge'. It's not really that hard. If you're already heating up that much water drain some into a pot or insulated vessel then sparge while getting the wort up to boil.

I have a portable hot plate that i sit a 12litre pot with my already heated to 66c sparge water in which only takes about 10 minutes to heat to 75c for mash out sparge temp. The malt pipe has to draining whilst I'm raising the kettle to boil.

I can't see any major time saving doing no sparge. So other than using more grain I'm a bit stumped as to why this is a method that I'd want to use.

What you have to consider is time wise a sparge can take up to 40 to 60 minutes during the sparging process you WILL be removing tannins from the grain bed into the wort. A no sparge will deliver a cleaner beer, for a couple of dollars worth of extra grain you are saving not only time, heating up extra water but a better conversion rate because of the fluid state of the wort.

 

[Cian Doyle]

I have been reading similar to the above, to me as a beginner the least complications the better.

 

[FarsideOfCrazy]

What you have to consider is time wise a sparge can take up to 40 to 60 minutes during the sparging process you WILL be removing tannins from the grain bed into the wort. A no sparge will deliver a cleaner beer, for a couple of dollars worth of extra grain you are saving not only time, heating up extra water but a better conversion rate because of the fluid state of the wort.

When I sparge it takes about 10 min to pour the water over the top screen. The vessel hasn't even gotten anywhere near boiling by the time it's drained.

 

[Ballaratguy]

I have a question for the guys who use the helix for filtering:
When hopping your brew if you just pour your hops into the brew will the helix filter out the hops when you empty the Guten?
(Long time lurker, just purchased the Guten & about to clean it and put a brew (pirate life throwback clone) next week)

 

[wide eyed and legless]

I have a question for the guys who use the helix for filtering:
When hopping your brew if you just pour your hops into the brew will the helix filter out the hops when you empty the Guten?
(Long time lurker, just purchased the Guten & about to clean it and put a brew (pirate life throwback clone) next week)

Yes there isn't much gets through the helix, put your hops straight into the boil but if you are chilling the wort with an immersion chiller the break will clog the helix.

 

[FarsideOfCrazy]

I have a question for the guys who use the helix for filtering:
When hopping your brew if you just pour your hops into the brew will the helix filter out the hops when you empty the Guten?
(Long time lurker, just purchased the Guten & about to clean it and put a brew (pirate life throwback clone) next week)

If you no chill the helix seems to work but if you chill then drain expect a bit of pain. Seems the cold break blocks the helix. I've only had it drain once out of about 10 brews easily ( I chill). It does do a good job of filtering hops if you can get it to work.

 

[Ballaratguy]

Thx for the quick response Weal
I’m intending to hot cube as I’m aware of water usage for chilling. I might see about running the wort through an ice chilled bath at a later date (maybe)

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Thx for the quick response Weal
I’m intending to hot cube as I’m aware of water usage for chilling. I might see about running the wort through an ice chilled bath at a later date (maybe)

You could leave the cold break in the cube if you pour it out gently without it glugging.

 

[goatchop41]

What you have to consider is time wise a sparge can take up to 40 to 60 minutes during the sparging process you WILL be removing tannins from the grain bed into the wort. A no sparge will deliver a cleaner beer, for a couple of dollars worth of extra grain you are saving not only time, heating up extra water but a better conversion rate because of the fluid state of the wort.

That sparge time may be relevant on a 3V system, but a sparge on this system can take a mere 10-15 mins and still give fantastic efficiency.
Regarding pulling tannins from the grain bed during your sparge - if you're doing that in any appreciable amount, then you're either sparging way too hot, have stuffed up your pH, or must have pretty much ground your malt in to almost complete flour (in which case you won'be be sparging, because it will certainly be a stuck/fully compacted bed).

As @FarsideOfCrazy pointed out, there really isn't any appeal to no-sparging here - you get lower overall efficiency and you have to modify the equipment to be able to fit a full batch. Sparging is stupidly easy on this - just heat the whole volume of water, then drain off the sparge water in to a bucket and let it sit until you need it. You don't even need to try to keep it warm or anything because it doesn't matter. Hell, you could probably just pour the entire bucket over the grain bed at once and still get better efficiency than no-sparging.
(For the record, I'm a former no-sparger from my previous BIAB setup and I loved it then. I am just completely convinced that it is worthwhile sparging with these systems)

 

[malt and barley blues]

As mentioned earlier, crush the grain so there are no visible un- cracked grain, the best thing about no sparge is with the extra volume of liquor you will not be compacting the grain bed, you will have what is known as a grain bed in a fluid state. This will lead to a better extraction of the sugars leading to a better efficiency. In saying that, because you will not be extracting the remaining sugars out with a sparge, the grain bill will have to increase. I will be doing one and I will be starting off at a 15% increase in the base malt and work it from there, or as has been suggested by WEAL, lower the projected efficiency and work it out with whichever program you use. For myself I will be increasing the base malt. It's a bit of 6 of one and half a dozen of the other.

How did you arrive at 15% Reg?