Going Ag Setup

[glennheinzel]

My New Year resolution was to get into AG by the end of Jan. I've got most of the kit, but just have to piece it together. Key components that I have include-
* 50litre(ish) old stainless steel "keg shaped" pot that my parents had been using for cooking crabs in for the past 20 years.
* 80 litre alum pot with lid.
* 30 litre hot water urn. I was planning to use the "keg shaped" pot and the the alum pot for my brewery, but was gifted the urn at the last minute.
* 44 litre mash tun.
* Two tap setups from MashMaster. In fact it is two of everything on this page (except the 1/2" full bore NPT 3 Piece Ball Valve) MashMaster Linky
* Italian burner from BeerBelly. BeerBelly Linky

Question 1. Which pot should I use? ie, 50l stainless steel keg or 80 litres alu pot with lid?

FYI - I plan to No Chill and generally get bored of the same brew quickly so I probably wouldn't want to brew more than 2 NC cubes of wort. Therefore my post boil volume shouldn't be much more than 30 litres (ie, 2*15l NC cubes). The thread Kettle Volume For Specific Batch Sizes indicates that I could boil 40l in a 50l keg which should fit in with my expected batch size (both pre and post boil).

Obviously stainless steel has its merits, but the bottom of the keg shaped pot isn't flat, the bottom rim may need to be altered to allow a better flame from the burner and it doesn't have a lid.

The 80l alu pot has better heat dispersion, the bottom is flat, it has a lid, it has plenty of room in case I need to brew a bigger batch or I could use it just because I want to reduce the risk of boilover. On the downside it is a bigger pot and may have more deadspace after run off, but perhaps this can be accounted for with the pickup tube?

Question 2. Using the 30litre urn as my HLT, what size batches will this allow me make?

Question 3. What size batches will the 44l esky allow me to make?

Question 4. Can anyone recommend a place in NW Sydney where I can get the necessary welding done? Also, should I visit Bunnings first to pick up pipe etc or is the parts likely to be sitting around their workshop?

Question 5. I'll only be using the Italian burner with the adjustable reg. Is heat protection advisable? If so, what are the options? ie, The link Burners Linky notes that the Italian burner on HP reg needs heat protection underneath it.

Thanks in advance for your help.

 

[SJW]

Question 1. Which pot should I use? ie, 50l stainless steel keg or 80 litres alu pot with lid? 50 Litre S/S for sure.
Question 2. Using the 30litre urn as my HLT, what size batches will this allow me make? Once again go a 50 litre S/S keg. I got 3 of em in my setup and I still need to top up the HLT to do my sparge.
Question 3. What size batches will the 44l esky allow me to make? A 25litre batch of a beer with about 8 to 10 kg's of grain max. No mashout.
Question 4. Can anyone recommend a place in NW Sydney where I can get the necessary welding done? Just tell em what its for and they will be knocking down your door to do u a favour. And they is anyone with a welder!
Question 5. I'll only be using the Italian burner with the adjustable reg. Is heat protection advisable? If so, what are the options? A heat sheild is always a great idea. And insulate the HLT and Mash Tun.
This is my setup.

 

[mika]

As always, there are different views.

1. I'd opt for the Ally. There's theories surrounding mixing efficiency of pots with 'square' dimensions ie Depth = diameter. And a big kettle is never a bad thing
2. 30Lt Urn is a little on the small side, I'd be looking at going a little bigger if you could. I brew 25L (postboil, ~32L preboil) batches and 30Lts as long as you could get it all out wouldn't be a problem but you could be limited by the amount of time it takes your HLT to get the sparge water up to temp, ie could end up mashing longer and extending your brew day slightly.
3. Depends on whether you batch or fly sparge, I've got a ~50L mash tun and I've brewed a 1080 beer at 60% efficiency without fly sparging, but it did mean I had to split the batch sparge, though there is evidence out there to suggest this is a better thing. Somewhere on the interweb (it's on computers now apparently) there's a calculator that lets you input the amount of grain you want to use at what liquor/grist ratio and will give you mash tun size. I had a search and can't find the damn thing :angry:
4. Fugged if I know...
5. I wouldn't recommend sticking your fingers in there. What kind of protection do you mean ? Will depend a lot on the layout of your equipment.

 

[dr K]

FWIW
I would go the 80 litre flat bot aluminium for the boil given a 30 litre finished wort volume
..Easier to work (tap etc)
..Better conduction, less energy
..Boil overs..I have a 120 litre boiler, I most commonly do a 36 litre finished batch...2 not quite full cornie kegs.....with trub, yeast and such it means I need about 40 litres of cooled wort, I leave about 3 litres of trub and such in the kettle , so that 43 litres of cooled wort, I allow absolute minimum 20% evaporation (a tad high perhaps but I boil hard) even 15% is still just on 50 litres to start and add to that 50 litres at 22C is going to be greater (in real volume) than 50 litres at 100C. It is uncommon that I get a boil-over on a 36 litre batch..but it happens, on a 54 litre batch I have to watch like a hawk.


Great thing about a HLT is that you can keep topping it up, so size is not a problem, 44 litre esky is fine even for 50+ litres with care (and sensible gravity)

K

 

[blackbock]

I agree with Dr K on his last point. 30 Litres is not too small for your HLT. It is more efficient and faster to heat up smaller volumes of water as needed than it is to heat up a large amount and then leave it sitting there losing heat and/or trying to maintain that temperature.

 

[glennheinzel]

Thanks all for your thoughts and suggestions. I will start by using the 30l urn as the HLT with the 80l alu pot to do single NC cube sized batches. I can then expand capacity when I'm comfortable with the procedures and I have a good recipe to double up on. The keg shaped pot can then be used as a HLT if needed in future.

SJW - Question 3. What size batches will the 44l esky allow me to make? A 25litre batch of a beer with about 8 to 10 kg's of grain max. No mashout.

Jayse's AG guide (Jayses Linky) mentions that 5kg of grain will give about 23 litres of 1.048. Does this mean the 25l batch of beer than you mentioned would be of high gravity?

5. I wouldn't recommend sticking your fingers in there. What kind of protection do you mean ? Will depend a lot on the layout of your equipment.

I was thinking of some sort of protection for the concrete pavers in my court yard (no mowing for me!). I've heard of firepavers (?), but wasn't sure if they would offer enough stability to support the italian burner, brew kettle and liquid. Protection may not be necessary because I'm only using the adjustable reg (as opposed to HP reg that damaged Domonsura's concrete), however its better to be safe than sorry.

I'm just about to head to Bunnings to get the mash tun parts.

 

[domonsura]

Rukh, I would definitely use some heat protection, that med pressure adjustable reg is capable of putting out almost the same amount of heat as the HP reg, so you are right to be showing a little concern about the potential effect on the unprotected concrete/surroundings. Some firebricks will cost you around $5 each and will support the weight fine - you'll just have to be careful moving them around as they are usually a little softer/more brittle than a conventional brick. Alternatively, you can use some standard bricks and put a piece of fibre cement sheet on top to take the brunt of the heat.

Your HLT will be fine that size, as the others have said. You can fill it for the mash in, then re-fill for the sparge etc. No worries Renae matey.

44 litre esky will allow you to make 45-50 litre batches no worries, 6kg of grain will make me a 25-30 litre batch easily, and a 50 litre batch (12kg grist) only fills my 50 litre mashtun up to ~3/4 full at most. 8kg of grist in my brewery would make me a 25 litre batch of 1.075-1.080 wort..............so slightly higher gravity than you are probably looking for.

 

[glennheinzel]

Update: My deadline of brewing my first AG by the end of Jan is fast approaching and things are coming together slowly.

I am hoping that someone can provide advice on-
1. Should I use an aluminium pickup tube if I am using an aluminium brew pot?
2. How does the following recipe look? (Should I add some caramunich or similar for more caramel taste)?
FYI - I have lowered the effeciency and upped the volume to help ensure that I have enough to fill a 15l NC cube. Hopefully it won't take too many brews to dial in the correct settings.

Robust Porter
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

General
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Category: Porter
Subcategory: Robust Porter
Recipe Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 18.93 liters
Volume Boiled: 22.71 liters
Mash Efficiency: 65 %
Total Grain/Extract: 5.35 kg.
Total Hops: 40.0 g.
Calories (12 fl. oz.): 208.4

Ingredients
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
4.5 kg. Australian Pale Malt
.15 kg. British Black Patent
.35 kg. English Amber Malt
.35 kg. English Chocolate Malt
20 g. Amarillo (Pellets, 8.50 %AA) boiled 60 minutes.
20 g. East Kent Goldings (Pellets, 5.00 %AA) boiled 20 minutes.
Yeast: WYeast 1098 British Ale

Vital Statistics
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Original Gravity: 1.053
Terminal Gravity: 1.013
Color: 29.55 SRM
Bitterness: 32.9 IBU
Alcohol (%volume): 5.3 %

 

[geoffi]

I use a copper pickup tube in my al kettle. I just have a tiny gap to keep them a chaste distance apart (I'm told they could get up to all sorts of hijinks otherwise).

Remember that a '15 litre' cube actually holds about 17 litres of hot wort. I usually do a double batch in my 50 litre kettle, which gives me two x 17 litre cubes.

 

[newguy]

I am hoping that someone can provide advice on-
1. Should I use an aluminium pickup tube if I am using an aluminium brew pot?

I'm not sure what a pickup tube is, but I can comment about dissimilar metals being in contact. Aluminum in contact with copper in a wet acidic environment will be bad for the aluminum. The copper & aluminum will form a galvanic cell (a battery) and the aluminum will corrode. I use a mix of aluminum & copper in my system, but I'm careful not to let the two actually touch during the mash. I made the mistake of leaving my copper return manifold in my aluminum mash tun before everything dried completely and my aluminum pot had quite a bit of pitting where the two were in contact. Storing them dry and in contact is okay - there is still a reaction, but it's very, very slow without water.

I have brass and stainless fittings in contact with aluminum with no issues. If your pickup tube is stainless or brass, you should be fine.

I had a quick look at your recipe and I'd suggest cutting back the amber and chocolate malts a bit - perhaps no more than 200-250g each. Amber malt will give a roasted character that a robust porter should have, but amber malt is pretty powerful stuff. Go easy with it. I'd suggest adding about 400-500g of medium crystal so that the beer has a malty middle to support the roast. I also wonder why you're using amarillo to bitter? Amarillo is such a wonderful flavour/aroma hop - use a general purpose variety instead - even some more EKG.

 

[Hutch]

Remember that a '15 litre' cube actually holds about 17 litres of hot wort. I usually do a double batch in my 50 litre kettle, which gives me two x 17 litre cubes.

I do the same as Geoffi, and aim for about 36 Ltrs post-boil - 17Ltrs per cube and ~2Ltrs trub. Then when it's cooled, top up from 17Ltrs to 21Ltrs in fermenter. Don't forget to account for the slight reduction in hop extraction efficiency due to higher boil gravity (or use brewing software to do this for you!)

 

[warrenlw63]

1. Should I use an aluminium pickup tube if I am using an aluminium brew pot?

Rukh, not needed. I use an ally pot with a copper pickup tube. If you're worried about galvanic corrosion just rotate the tube off the pot's surface between uses. That said I doubt it will ever be a problem.

Edit: Speeelling

Warren -

 

[glennheinzel]

Thanks all. I'll probably go with a SS tube to be on the safe side. I'll also bump the recipe up a couple of litres to help play it safe.

NewGuy - I'll reduce amber/choc and add in some medium crystal. I planned to use Amarillo as the bittering hop as I saw Ross comment elsewhere that he and an unnamed commercial brewery use it to great success in their English ales.

Edit: Now its time to hit the yellow pages to find welding/engineering firms in NW Sydney.

 

[geoffi]

Edit: Now its time to hit the yellow pages to find welding/engineering firms in NW Sydney.

Well, I'm as close to a tooltard as you can get, and I managed to fit a tap and tube to my kettle without any problems. No welding. This is from my post on the exercise...




Yesterday arvo I overcame my laziness and finally got around to putting a tap on my 50L al kettle.

I put together the following bits and pieces:

A brass tap, 15mm thread.
A brass elbow with about 5cm of 15mm thread
A connector for the above
Two 15mm brass flanged nuts
(Total cost of brass items $25 from Bunnings)
Two DIY washers cut from a silicone bake tray (found at Woolies on special for $3)

I drilled a hole with a spade bit. Very easy, but the result was not quite round nor quite big enough. A little extra reaming with an ordinary bit and some work with sandpaper sorted that out.

I put teflon tape on all the threads, then assembled with the washers on the inside making the seal with a flanged nut. Another flanged nut on the outside, tightened, then the connector, then the tap.

Tested with cold water overnight -- no leaks at all. The elbow forms a little pickup tube, though it is a bit short and leaves a bit more behind than I'd like. I'll get a little piece of copper tubing or similar and attach it.


I found some old copper tubing with a bend that fitted in perfectly with a little teflon tape. I can move it a little so it sits just near the base of the wall.

 

[glennheinzel]

Geoff - Thanks for the info. I will now attempt some of the work myself, however some welding is still required because of the MashMaster accessories that I have.

 

[bigfridge]

Thanks all. I'll probably go with a SS tube to be on the safe side.

Stainless Steel is the worst choice possible as it is at the opposite end to aluminium on the galvanic series - see here for details.

When moist stainless comes into contact with aluminium there is a Psssssssstttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt sound and holes appear in the aluminium.

Dave
(Metallurgist in a previous life).

 

[glennheinzel]

After a quick ring around (Yellow Pages was useless compared to www.hotfrog.com.au), I have been advised that aluminium is unable to be welded to SS. Does this mean that those of you who are using different metals are using compression fittings?

FYI - I have one of these SS ferrules which I need to attach to the pickup tube (on the outside of the pot).


Edit: Doh! Just saw Dave's post.

 

[newguy]

Stainless Steel is the worst choice possible as it is at the opposite end to aluminium on the galvanic series - see here for details.

When moist stainless comes into contact with aluminium there is a Psssssssstttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt sound and holes appear in the aluminium.

Dave
(Metallurgist in a previous life).

Thanks Dave! I'm going to inspect the holes that house all my compression fittings immediately!

 

[glennheinzel]

Quick update - Because I have the MashMaster Tri-clover clamps (no threads), I needed one of the stainless steel pieces to be welded to the dip tube so I got in contact with an engineering firm. I had been hoping to use the larger aluminium brew pot, however the technicalities involved with welding meant that it was going to be more expensive to get a workable solution. Therefore I decided that I would use the smaller SS keg shaped pot which would be a much quicker (and cheaper) job. I'll brew single batches for now.

Next problem. I was planning to No Chill, however I have just checked each of the NC cubes that I'd been saving and each one has at least a small spot of "growth" at the bottom. I had cleaned each one with PSR after I used the fresh wort kit, but presumably I didn't let it dry out well enough before sealing and storing it. Given that I had cleaned it at the time, is the current mould likely to be a less dangerous variety? ie, Should I throw them out or do you think that they'll be okay with a good clean?

 

[geoffi]

Quick update - Because I have the MashMaster Tri-clover clamps (no threads), I needed one of the stainless steel pieces to be welded to the dip tube so I got in contact with an engineering firm. I had been hoping to use the larger aluminium brew pot, however the technicalities involved with welding meant that it was going to be more expensive to get a workable solution. Therefore I decided that I would use the smaller SS keg shaped pot which would be a much quicker (and cheaper) job. I'll brew single batches for now.

Next problem. I was planning to No Chill, however I have just checked each of the NC cubes that I'd been saving and each one has at least a small spot of "growth" at the bottom. I had cleaned each one with PSR after I used the fresh wort kit, but presumably I didn't let it dry out well enough before sealing and storing it. Given that I had cleaned it at the time, is the current mould likely to be a less dangerous variety? ie, Should I throw them out or do you think that they'll be okay with a good clean?

I've had very manky looking cubes that have come up spotless with the following:

Half cup vinegar
Half fill with water
Half cup bleach
Fill up with water

Forget about it for a few days.

Apparently acidifying the water makes the bleach vastly more effective at killing nasties.

There's also caustic which some people swear by, but this works for me and I don't like playing with really nasty stuff.

BTW, make sure you don't mix vinegar and bleach directly together.