Gluten Free - No Malt Experiment

[Joel]

Sounds good TB

Early on I successfully made many GF beers from raw grains and enzymes from the HBS.

Flour is a pita as it is hard to get to lauter but if you use millet grain the hull will help and add 200g rice hulls per kg of grain it will lauter really well. You'l find the grain a pet store.

From HBS you can get an enzyme called improzyme that has protease, glucanase and amylase activity. A step mash 55-70-85C 30min at each step will work good, you could then boil the converted mash to develop flavour if desired. An amyloglucosidase could then be used in the kettle to get attenuation, holding at 60C for an hour or so before starting the boil.

Maize also works well as you don't need to add rice hulls.

Have Fun!

Cheers, Andrew.

So improzyme is all that is required to achieve a proper, or at least sufficient, mash using unmalted millet? If so I'll be roasting up some raw millet (for colour and flavour) and conducting a triple decoction mash (55-70-85C).

A few questions though;

1. How much improzyme is required? A few mL per kilo of grain?
2. What is the approximate potential extract?
3. Is hop utilisation similar to normal?
4. What is the best type/grade of millet, and where is the best type of place to get it? (I did research this a few years ago, but many beers later, I've forgotten!)

 

[Millet Man]

So improzyme is all that is required to achieve a proper, or at least sufficient, mash using unmalted millet? If so I'll be roasting up some raw millet (for colour and flavour) and conducting a triple decoction mash (55-70-85C).

A few questions though;

1. How much improzyme is required? A few mL per kilo of grain?
2. What is the approximate potential extract?
3. Is hop utilisation similar to normal?
4. What is the best type/grade of millet, and where is the best type of place to get it? (I did research this a few years ago, but many beers later, I've forgotten!)

1. Yep about 2ml per kg should do.
2. Millet is just under 70% carbohydrates so 1.032 pts/lb/gal or so.
3. Probably, never measured it.
4. White French from a pet food store.

No need to do a decoction as the 85C rest will gelatinise it, step mash is fine. Just remember to add the amyloglucosidase or else the beer won't attenuate.

Cheers, Andrew.

 

[Joel]

Thanks Andrew.

Can you explain why the amyloglucosidase is required? I'm just trying to get my head around all this. I've only got Noonan's "New Brewing Lager Beer" as a reference, and I'm not too good at this side of things, but if improzyme has protease, glucanase and amylase activity, isn't that sufficient to achieve a fermentable wort? As I read it, Noonan has amyloglucosidase as a sort of optional extra. Many things I've read on the web say that amyloglucosidase will make ALL sugars in the wort fermentable. Is this the aim? What would happen without it?

Also, where can the average bloke get some?

 

[Millet Man]

Thanks Andrew.

Can you explain why the amyloglucosidase is required? I'm just trying to get my head around all this. I've only got Noonan's "New Brewing Lager Beer" as a reference, and I'm not too good at this side of things, but if improzyme has protease, glucanase and amylase activity, isn't that sufficient to achieve a fermentable wort? As I read it, Noonan has amyloglucosidase as a sort of optional extra. Many things I've read on the web say that amyloglucosidase will make ALL sugars in the wort fermentable. Is this the aim? What would happen without it?

Also, where can the average bloke get some?

The improzyme only has alpha-amylase activity so the wort won't be very fermentable (only 30-40% from memory), you need to use the amyloglucosidase to make create fermentable sugars. If you add it in the kettle at 60C and hold for 1-2 hours before boiling you will get 70-80% fermentability, I used to get a little 7 ml vial of Modiferm from my LHBS and it did the trick (add 1 ml per kg of grain). It will only dry the beer right out if you add it to the fermenter.

Cheers, Andrew.

 

[Joel]

OK. That makes sense. Could it be added to the mash instead of the kettle? Say, mash at 85C and let the improzyme do its stuff for a while, then cool the mash to 60C and add the modiferm and hold for an hour. Would a starch conversion test be helpful here? Then sparge and boil as normal.

 

[Joel]

So I've found an answer already. One of your old posts Andrew! From around 2007.

I tried Bi-Aglut a few years ago and it wasn't great, haven't seen it around since then.

To make a clone of this it's 50/50 raw buckwheat and maize syrup (Brewiser liquid brewing sugar is maize syrup). You'll also need some enzymes from your local HBS - Improzyme and Modiferm. Rough recipe as follows:

Batch Size 23lt
2.0 kg Raw buckwheat
2.0 kg Brewiser liquid brewing sugar
0.4 kg Rice hulls

Crush buckwheat and mix with 6.0 lt water and 5 ml of Improzyme enzymes
30 min at 55C
30 min at 85C

Add cold water to reduce temperature and add 3.5 ml of Modiferm enzymes
120 min at 65C

Add rice hulls and transfer to lauter tun and sparge - could be a good candidate for BIAB

Add maize syrup to kettle and boil etc as for a regular beer

I'd bitter to about 25 IBU and use Saaz for flavour and aroma, ferment with a DCL yeast either W34/70 or US-05.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

a starch test will might help you determine when the improzyme has done its job - it wont help with working out when the amyloglucosidase has done its job though.

The alpha amylase will convert the starches to sugars -- from there you are looking at a further conversion of long chained sugars to shorter chained sugars and the starch test doesn't tell you anything about that.

Sure - if you get a positive on the starch conversion you know for sure you aren't done yet ... but it doesn't tell you when you are done.

The amyloglucosidase can certainly be added to the mash .. but you will get better control by adding it to the boil kettle. You mash and lauter to give you your thick unfermentable wort ... then you add to the kettle and you can measure very precisely how long you let it convert before raising the temp. Over a few batches you will get a very good idea of just how long you need to leave it there to get you desired attenuation. Inteh mash -- there is alot more going on and times and temps are open to a lot more influencing factors.

Thanks for all the info Andrew -- I will be putting it to good use.

TB

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Two updates (excuse typos - 330ml Russian Imperial stouts, number 4 going down as I type...)

No-malt exp #1 is ready to bottle - I have taken a final gravity and it 1.011 from 1.047 (I seem to recall) so has given me by pure chance, what I think is a perfect attenuation. Tastes not too bad... it has a mild tart edge and is is a little "winey" but it also tastes a hell of a lot like beer too. It is in my book missing that "malty" character. But I reckon its not too bad for a light lager style. Just waiting for my final "evening out" rouse to settle down and I will bottle this tonight. Should have a taste report of a force carbed sample by this time tomorrow morning.

Millet biscuit making - I just whipped up a batch of millet cookies and baked m to various stages of colour. They are undergoing final low temp drying out atm but here's areport on the smells of the various colour. I have assigned malt equivalent names based on an estimate of the colour.

Ale / Vienna - just got a little colour on them and pulled em out. Smells like a loaf of fresh cooked white bread torn apart.

Munich - biscuit. That dry dark bread crusty aroma. With a little bit of Nanna's scones thrown in.

Amber - This is the money shot. This one smells malty. Like sticking your nose in a bag of MO

Choc - Not really anything choc about it except the colour (not quite burned black) has some of the maltiness of the amber, and a lot of really dark bread crust. With hints of the acrid burned and some of that slightly deeper "browness"

After its all done I will run congress mashes (steeps really) on each sample and get real EBC figures - plus a taste report on the resulting worts

I recon I can even make a "crystal" biscuit. All I need to do is mix some of the pullulanase enzyme with water and use that water to make the little biscuits. Cook them at 80C under a foil cover for a while to "stew" them crystal malt style - then ramp the temps up to roast them. Should give me little disks of semi sugar/caramel darkened to whatever color I want...

Photos of cookies etc this evening after drying is all done. congress mashes and official EBC figures will probably have to wait till next week.

I have a modicum of confidence about the concept - the more Russian Imperial Stout I drink, the better I think its going to work...

TB

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Well - a first cut sample is in the glass. It looks like I made beer !!

Pale straw - still a little cloudy because I was impatient about bottling for a taste - medium loose-ish foam that fades down to a light cap but seems to stick around from there - pleasant cascade aroma with a low grainy background and weirdly enough, a little anise or liquorice - Flavour is light and faintly malt sweet, a little hop flavour, low bitterness just in balance - there is good "beeriness" but also a little bit of a tart edge, and a drying quality to the beer, similar to the tart dryness you get in a Wit. Medium palate weight and finishes dry and reasonably clean. A slight lingering tartness around the edges of the tounge.

If you handed me this beer... I wouldn't rave about it, but I probably wouldn't pour it out either. Its an acceptable Cream ale. With a bit more conditioning on it I think it might turn out to be a medium/good one. I am pleasantly surprised.

Here it is - sorry about the crappy webcam picture. The wife is away with the good camera.


The biscuits worked out spectacularly well - here is a scan (to avoid the crappy webcam) of a sample in order of colour.



Left is just the biscuit dried in an 80-90 oven - the rest were semi dried and then toasted for colour

I'll make another brew once I have done some testing on the bicuits to determine their actual colour and some of their mashed taste characteristics.

TB

 

[katzke]

So why does everyone try and duplicate light tasteless brews? A light beer made with out malt will always taste off. Heck some light beers made with malt taste off.

Hope you can use the dark biscuits to make something with some flavor even if it is not beer. Maybe add some wild rice or something else to add flavor.

Just trying to think out of the box and maybe trying for a coffee stout or Irish Red type of brew would be better then a clone of mega beer. They can not drink beer anyway and while I have not tried any of the gluten free beers I hear then are not very close to beer in reality just a try at a substitute. I would think that even an American IPA would be better. Sure who wants to do a sample brew with 20 dollars worth of hops but I think you get the idea.

 

[Millet Man]

Pale straw - still a little cloudy because I was impatient about bottling for a taste - medium loose-ish foam that fades down to a light cap but seems to stick around from there - pleasant cascade aroma with a low grainy background and weirdly enough, a little anise or liquorice - Flavour is light and faintly malt sweet, a little hop flavour, low bitterness just in balance - there is good "beeriness" but also a little bit of a tart edge, and a drying quality to the beer, similar to the tart dryness you get in a Wit. Medium palate weight and finishes dry and reasonably clean. A slight lingering tartness around the edges of the tounge.

Nice job TB,

Came out pretty good considering how murky they wort was!

I get that anise / liquorice taste from millet too, but mostly in crystallised malt. The tartness is quite common too, especially if the final pH gets down around 4.0-4.2. What did it yours come out at?

Biscuits are making me hungry...

Cheers, Andrew.

 

[Millet Man]

So why does everyone try and duplicate light tasteless brews? A light beer made with out malt will always taste off. Heck some light beers made with malt taste off.

TB was not trying to duplicate a beer but do an experiment to test if it would work and see what the flavour was like - pale low hopped brew is the best way to see how the flavour works as it is a blank canvas.

Just trying to think out of the box and maybe trying for a coffee stout or Irish Red type of brew would be better then a clone of mega beer. They can not drink beer anyway and while I have not tried any of the gluten free beers I hear then are not very close to beer in reality just a try at a substitute. I would think that even an American IPA would be better. Sure who wants to do a sample brew with 20 dollars worth of hops but I think you get the idea.

Go and try a couple of GF beers (Redbridge by Bud and Bards Tale would be a couple of the better ones in the US) and let us know your verdict, a different taste but no worse than "mega beer" would be my guess.

Cheers, Andrew.

 

[katzke]

TB was not trying to duplicate a beer but do an experiment to test if it would work and see what the flavour was like - pale low hopped brew is the best way to see how the flavour works as it is a blank canvas.

Cheers, Andrew.

I got that and Dan is a good one to work out any recipe, as he likes to take notes and experiment.

I was just saying that trying to make a light colored and tasting malt beverage with out malt might not be the best thing to do. I have not tried any of the gluten free brews and would not buy any. Just had the conversation with a person this week about it and they gave up on trying them. Part because they just were not anything like beer and part because the ones that were close were bloody expensive. Bottom line was the trade offs were not worth it for that person. But if a person had the craving and would kill their mother-in-law for a beer it is good to know there are some out there that may be a close substitute.

As to experimenting with light colored and tasting brews to see what the canvas looks like. Darker beers are much more forgiving so I would start there. Just like is recommended when starting to brew, the harder styles are not suggested. True you may learn more from the light beer in this case but I think most people agree gluten free beer just is not quite beer. The few posts about brewing gluten free have always been about light colored brews as I recall. Just trying to get people to think different and Dan is on that path with the dark biscuits.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I got that and Dan is a good one to work out any recipe, as he likes to take notes and experiment.

I was just saying that trying to make a light colored and tasting malt beverage with out malt might not be the best thing to do. I have not tried any of the gluten free brews and would not buy any. Just had the conversation with a person this week about it and they gave up on trying them. Part because they just were not anything like beer and part because the ones that were close were bloody expensive. Bottom line was the trade offs were not worth it for that person. But if a person had the craving and would kill their mother-in-law for a beer it is good to know there are some out there that may be a close substitute.

As to experimenting with light colored and tasting brews to see what the canvas looks like. Darker beers are much more forgiving so I would start there. Just like is recommended when starting to brew, the harder styles are not suggested. True you may learn more from the light beer in this case but I think most people agree gluten free beer just is not quite beer. The few posts about brewing gluten free have always been about light colored brews as I recall. Just trying to get people to think different and Dan is on that path with the dark biscuits.

But - the vast majority of people who drink beer... drink lightly flavoured pale lager. All the poor Gluten intolerant people want, is a shot at what the rest of the population has. I cant think of anything the poor buggers need less than a beer Nazi (sorry... but you are sounding a little bit sieg heil about it) telling them that if they refuse to drink "proper" beer they shouldn't be allowed anything...

Thats what I am shooting for anyway - my gluten intolerant cousin drinks pale beers - and so do I. I fail to see what is wrong with a good pilsner/helles/dortmunder/CAP/kolsch/blonde/cream - just because its not an IPA doesn't mean its meant to be Bud Light.

I dont agree with you that trying for darker beers is a better idea - its perhaps an easier path.. but I will learn less. And the target audience doesn't want a porter anyway. I agree with millet man. If I can make a pale lager taste like a pale lager, I can brew anything. IPAs are easy - but if you cant brew me a light lager that I want to drink - you just cant brew.

I'm not trying to demonstrate that good GF beer can be made - Obrien's brewing does that perfectly well - I am looking for a fast and dirty way to whip up the odd batch - for a brewer who doesn't want or need to invest in the infrastructure to malt his own GF grain. And to learn a thing or two about how beer works while I am at it. I reckon that to make "generally" good GF beer - you need to go the whole hog and travel the path that Adrew has cut through the Jungle for us. BUT - If I am just trying to tweak up one beer for one person. I am clever enough to get a good one - and stubborn enough to not stop trying till I do.

And no matter what happens... I will learn a lot about brewing. So its a no lose situation really.

I will send you a bottle when I have something I am truly happy with - and you can tell me its rubbish and that you were right all along

TB

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Nice job TB,

Came out pretty good considering how murky they wort was!

I get that anise / liquorice taste from millet too, but mostly in crystallised malt. The tartness is quite common too, especially if the final pH gets down around 4.0-4.2. What did it yours come out at?

Biscuits are making me hungry...

Cheers, Andrew.

I m a bad experimental brewer and didn't measure it yet ... but seeing as most of it isn't bottled, I still have time.

Do you think you could adjust the pH upwards with a base addition?? to try and neutralise the tartness?? I think that the slight acidity is one of the things that makes GF beers less acceptable to the drinker. Maybe a tiny calcium hydroxide addition to the finished beer??

The biscuits look tasty - but aren't very nice. I had to try one of each... not something nanna would be proud of

Might try to make the "crystal" biscuit tomorrow .. that'll taste good.. if it works it will be mostly sugar.

 

[katzke]

But - the vast majority of people who drink beer... drink lightly flavoured pale lager. All the poor Gluten intolerant people want, is a shot at what the rest of the population has. I cant think of anything the poor buggers need less than a beer Nazi (sorry... but you are sounding a little bit sieg heil about it) telling them that if they refuse to drink "proper" beer they shouldn't be allowed anything...

TB

Not my intent. I know nothing about Gluten free beer and hope I never have to drink one for the same reason others do. All I have heard is the brews out there are close but not quite beer. Some have even been described as down right bad.

Just thought I would encourage people to try and make something in a different style that would be enjoyable and could be consumed in adult company.

I understand that most people drink light or pale beers. I guess there must be 3 types of people that would be drinking Gluten free beers. Those that have never had a beer because they have always been off gluten containing products, those that have a taste for beer but can no longer drink it, and those that have a taste for all kinds of beer but can no longer drink it. 2 of the groups would benefit from experimenting with other styles of brews then the traditional pale light brew. So I guess we are both wrong. I am wrong because I tried to introduce old beer drinkers to new styles and you are wrong in thinking they only would like to drink what they used to. To make it worse we are both wrong because gluten free beer will never taste like the beer they used to drink, light or dark.

I am going to hide now and let you keep experimenting.

 

[Millet Man]

Do you think you could adjust the pH upwards with a base addition?? to try and neutralise the tartness?? I think that the slight acidity is one of the things that makes GF beers less acceptable to the drinker. Maybe a tiny calcium hydroxide addition to the finished beer??

Would be worth a try to see if it takes the acidic edge off it. Easy test to do.

Cheers, Andrew.

 

[Millet Man]

As to experimenting with light colored and tasting brews to see what the canvas looks like. Darker beers are much more forgiving so I would start there. Just like is recommended when starting to brew, the harder styles are not suggested. True you may learn more from the light beer in this case but I think most people agree gluten free beer just is not quite beer. The few posts about brewing gluten free have always been about light colored brews as I recall. Just trying to get people to think different and Dan is on that path with the dark biscuits.

I can see your point but for the homebrewer there are only light coloured malts, flours and grain extracts available for gluten free beers so that is where they generally start. To make darker beers you need to malt or roast your own grains or make biscuits like TB is trying, it's just an extra level of complexity on an already difficult process and not a good place for a new brewer to start.

As TB mentioned, most people looking for gluten free beer want a pale one - 95% of our sales are either lager or pale ale. Our best tasting, most "normal" beer is our dark ale but we sell very little of it. We have asked our customers what beer they would like next and the most popular response is a low alcohol lager :wacko: and a few say stout. No requests for IPA or dubbels yet but I do make them for my own consumption, if anyone wants some pointers then I'm more than happy to help.

I'll have to take issue with your statement that "most people agree gluten free beer is not quite beer", if I took some lambic, roggenbier and raspberry wheat out for the public to taste then most would also say they're not quite beer. But we the beer lovers know they are just beer of a different style and taste, just like gluten free beer is.

Cheers, Andrew.

 

[muckanic]

Do you think you could adjust the pH upwards with a base addition?? to try and neutralise the tartness?? I think that the slight acidity is one of the things that makes GF beers less acceptable to the drinker. Maybe a tiny calcium hydroxide addition to the finished beer??

I recently tried to neutralise some spontaneous lactic acidity with CaCO3, and found that I had to dump in way more than I expected for less effect than I expected. So it either wasn't a strong enough base - unlike presumably Ca(OH)2 - or the resulting lactate ions are not flavour-neutral. I was just going by taste, no pH measures. Actually, titratable acidity would possibly be the better measure anyway.

Maybe this is where corn comes into its own? ie, use the sweetness to balance the tartness. There is possibly also a case for malting the grains for smoothness, as weizens tend to be less tart than wits. It may be enough that the grains are simply dried and not necessarily kilned, as it seems to me that home kilning is actually the biggest hassle in the whole process. OTOH, de-rooting doesn't look like a lot of fun with some grains either :-(.

Whilst it may not be gluten-free, has anyone listening done the analogue of a wit using 50% of either unmalted millet or buckwheat? These two grains seem to be the ones that most often get the thumbs-up for flavour.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

yeah - thats why I was thinking Lime or even food grade caustic. Use a strong base and then hopefully you need so little of it there is no contribution to the flavour apart from raising the pH.

I think corn or rice is the obvious solution - less for balance than for dilution. This stuff is tart.. but not overwhelmingly so. So simply cutting back on teh percentage of tart ingredient should do the trick. My grist was mostly millet and a little sorghum - I will try 100% millet first because I know that sorghum beers run to sourness - so eliminate that as a cause, then look at corn/rice to give mostly but not completely neutral extract - and add melanoidins from the Biscuits or from toasted grains. I think the biscuits have a better chance of emulating real malt flavours - more sugar in malt than in raw grain.. and you can emulate that in a biscuit as well as moisture levels.

At a guess - I think it will end up somewhere in the vicinity of 50-60% raw base grain (probably millet) and a combination of rice/corn, the biscuits and some sugar/caramel to make up the balance. Maybe a little buckwheat to assist with head retention if the percentage of rice/corn/sugar needs to creep up.

At the moment - I have confidence. The beer was actually pretty good, just a little tart. Cut that down a fraction and I wouldn't even try to mess about too much for a light coloured beer - its only if and when you want to brew something "malty" that it starts to get harder when you aren't actually using any malt.

Current batch is bottle conditioning now - so I will see what becomes of it with a couple of weeks smoothing out and settling down. In the meantime I will do another batch. 100% millet (persisting with the flour till its gone) and some biscuits to see I cant inject a little maltiness into the equation.