Getting The Basics Straight

[maltedhopalong]

Hi All,

Apparently, ask any AG or partial brewer and they'll tell you that you can't just add hops to a can of malt extract and voila - beer. No, apparently you need to steep some grains and add it to the wert.

But does anyone know why? I haven't done them myself so I thought it would be good to get the basics straight. Can anyone explain why it would come out no good?

 

[Pumpy]

You would not get any bitterness from just fermenting the hops with the malt extract, to balance the beer ,ie a balance of sweet malt extract and bitterness from the hops ,you may get some grassy flavour .

even steeping some grains would not give you the desired result

I am not an expert on partials but would suggest you get about 250 grams of crystal malt grain and steep it at 66C then drain it off from the husks and boil that for 30 mins with some hops in and that will give you the bitterness to balance your beer and give some body to the kit .

pumpy

 

[maltedhopalong]

What about a combination of different malt extracts, would that provide the balance of malts required?

I guess this was the reason I asked the question... what's missing? Why would it have a grassy flavour?

 

[Pumpy]

What about a combination of different malt extracts, would that provide the balance of malts required?

I guess this was the reason I asked the question... what's missing? Why would it have a grassy flavour?

Malt is sweet

Hops boiled for 40 mins adds 'bitter'

What is missing ....the 'bitter' is missing

if you dry hop then you get a grassy aroma flavour but no 'bitter '

How am I going ?

pumpy

 

[maltedhopalong]

Ah, I see. No, I appreciate that, pumpy. Didn't realise dry hopping added no bitterness.

So really, the partial mash isn't required, you could just add the hops while boiling the malt wert?

 

[Pumpy]

Ah, I see. No, I appreciate that, pumpy. Didn't realise dry hopping added no bitterness.

So really, the partial mash isn't required, you could just add the hops while boiling the malt wert?

yes thats the idea .

if you do steep some some crystal grain it will give your beer some more body and more authentic flavour .

I am sure it will taste good .

Pumpy

 

[mickoz]

Hops need to be isomerised by boiling. This converts the Alpha Acids (bitter)into a water soluble form that will merge with your sweet malt and provide the balance we all seek grasshopper


Mick

 

[snagler]

This may help

 

[Trent]

Freestyla
Are you talking straight out unhopped extract cans, or actual "kit" cans, like the ones you get at home brew shops, or the supermarket? If you are talking about kit cans, like a Coopers Draught or something, then yes, you can just dump some hop pellets into the fermenter, and it will add some hop flavour, and more than likely improve the kit. This (as pointed out earlier) is known as "dry hopping". Another method you can use is the "hop tea", where you can get a French Press, stick 30g of hops in there (I would suggest some hallertauer, or tettnang if you are doing a basic kit, saaz if you are doing a lager kit, or something american like cascade or amarillo for an american style kit) and boil the kettle. Fill the hopped french press with the boiled water, maybe even let it cool 5 mins in the kettle first, then give it 10 mins in the french press, then press the strainer down, and add that to your fermenter with the kit. This should give a bit of hop character too, and improve the kit. Ask your local home Brew Shop for advice. Or ask here!
If you are talking about the unhopped extract, then you need to boil this stuff to add bitterness. You DO NOT need to steep cracked grains in this type of beer, but it can help you achieve the hallmarks of a certain style (such as the use of crystal malts in an american pale ale, or english bitter). When I did extracts, I found that I could use 3kg of unhopped malt extract in a beer to get me around the 1050 mark. I would boil about .5 to 1L of the extract in about 5 or 6L of water for an hour. I would get the bittering hops, tie them up in a stocking piece (with heaps of room - they expand alot) and add them at 60 or 45 mins, whatever the recipe I was using called for. The I would do the same for any flavour hops (30-15 mins) and aroma hops (15 mins to steeping after I shut off the boil). After boiling, you dissolve the rest of the extract in the (now very hot) water, and add to your fermenter, top it up to 23L with cold water, and pitch the yeast. I used to fill up a 15L jerrycan and stick it in the fridge for a day before I did an extract brew, so when I added it to my boiled portion, it would end up around 20C in the fermenter, and I could pitch my yeast straight away.
I think it is very smart of you to want to learn the basics first, but generally all grain and partial brewers know how much better they feel the additions of grains and hops have made their beer. Pretty much all of them have started on kits, and made their way up from there. A fellow all grain brewer (and a brewer who I really respect) recently told a new brewer to follow the instructions on the can first, then start making little tweaks from there. That way you will get a feel for what each little change you have made will make to a beer. If you start out steeping grains and adding hops and you dont like the beer, how will you know what part of the process made the flavour the way it is? Keep it simple, take little steps, and soon enough, you will know heaps about hops, grains, etc... and probably spend way too much time brewing, or thinking about brewing liek the rest of us!
All the best
Trent

 

[maltedhopalong]

Hey thanks all.

I do believe there's a huge gap going from a k&k brewer and I must apologise because at times I ask stupid questions and question the answers (Which tends to piss people off) but it's purely in ignorance.

I have only done kit and kilo's before and I find them really hard to "modify". I know what kind of malt taste I want, and I know what kind of hop taste/aroma/bitterness I want, but it's very hard to find a kit that has this same profile. That's why I want to try making my own up (after all, I thought, isn't beer just malt, hops and water? I can buy malt and hops from my hbs!

So I really appreciate everyone's help and I do apologise if I've sounded a bit irreverent. But without asking questions like this, I'd believe that there was no way to do what i wanted to do, before today, every person i spoke to said, if you use unhopped malt extract, you have to steep grains, no matter what. Not that that's hard, but I want to keep things simple, I can branch otu later.



Incidentally, can you do the hop boils to just plain water and add the malt later? I'm just thinking it would make it easier to keep my boiler "clean" as i use it for other things too.

 

[bconnery]

Incidentally, can you do the hop boils to just plain water and add the malt later? I'm just thinking it would make it easier to keep my boiler "clean" as i use it for other things too.

No. The hops need some malt with them, even just a little, to get the bitterness out.

You definitely don't NEED to add steeped grains, it just results in a better quality product.
Before moving more into extract with steeped grains I used plain extract and the morgans range, which are made from base grains and specialty grains, to achieve different styles and flavours.
You can make nice beers this way with a few hop additions and a small boil.

I found that adding flavour by using steeped grains instead of the morgans kits resulted in better beers, but it is more effort.

 

[maltedhopalong]

No. The hops need some malt with them, even just a little, to get the bitterness out.

You definitely don't NEED to add steeped grains, it just results in a better quality product.
Before moving more into extract with steeped grains I used plain extract and the morgans range, which are made from base grains and specialty grains, to achieve different styles and flavours.
You can make nice beers this way with a few hop additions and a small boil.

I found that adding flavour by using steeped grains instead of the morgans kits resulted in better beers, but it is more effort.

that range, are you talking about the "master blends"? Caramalt, Chocolate malt, Crystal Malt etc???

 

[bconnery]

that range, are you talking about the "master blends"? Caramalt, Chocolate malt, Crystal Malt etc???

That's them... They list the composition on the tin, or it is on the site maybe, so you can see what sort of grains went into making them...

 

[Paleman]

Some people confuse steeping chrystal malts, with mashing or partial mashing. These are not quite the same.

Mashing and steeping are two different things. An all grainer or a partial masher will mash their unconverted grains for an hour or so, to convert the enzymes/starches in the unconverted grains. So the goodness from these grains can then be used as wort. Usually mashing with the correct amount of water at 60 -69 degrees.

Steeping chrystal malts, which have already been converted, is usually just a matter of steeping the malts in water from anything between cold and just below boiling. To draw out the grains already converted goodness. Then using this in your kit/partial or all grain beer.

Although i dont think ive heard of an all grain recipe requiring steeped chrystal malts, as basic malts would be used to get the desired effect.

 

[Paleman]

Hi All,

Apparently, ask any AG or partial brewer and they'll tell you that you can't just add hops to a can of malt extract and voila - beer. No, apparently you need to steep some grains and add it to the wert.

Just another point.

Yes you can add hops to extract. It's called extract brewing. And probably a step up from kit brewing. It allows you to make a beer in your own style, without interference from hopped kit cans. Next step is partial, then full mashing.

As long as you bitter your unhopped extract, then add flavour and aroma hops correctly. You can do, what you apparently think that you cant.

A properly hopped extract brew ( not using manufactured hopped cans, eg Coopers Lager, Draught ).......makes a very nice beer. According to quality ingredients of course.

 

[Fatgodzilla]

Just another point.

Yes you can add hops to extract. It's called extract brewing. And probably a step up from kit brewing. It allows you to make a beer in your own style, without interference from hopped kit cans. Next step is partial, then full mashing.

As long as you bitter your unhopped extract, then add flavour and aroma hops correctly. You can do, what you apparently think that you cant.

A properly hopped extract brew ( not using manufactured hopped cans, eg Coopers Lager, Draught ).......makes a very nice beer. According to quality ingredients of course.

Yes, I've lived by the hope that a 1.5kg can of unhopped malt extract was just that. A 1.7kg can of kit extract probably wasn't 1.7kg of 100% malt, because it also had various enhancers to make a kit beer. Go from kit tio unmalted then add your own hops, enhancers (crystal & other grains) and good yeast and you should improve on any kit beer you can make. Except when you balls it up. But that's for a different thread !!!

I've sworn off kits except when nice meaning people who know I homebrew buy me cans as a gift. I've made 5 Coopers Pale Ales in a row and pretty much following the same ingredients / techniques, got five different beers ! One was great, two drinkable and two ordinary (drunk them anyway). Got 10kg of grain ready, waiting on my Fridge Controller and an immersion heater and Full AG, here I come. (no more mini mashes in a 10 litre pot on the stove !)

 

[maltedhopalong]

Just another point.

Yes you can add hops to extract. It's called extract brewing. And probably a step up from kit brewing. It allows you to make a beer in your own style, without interference from hopped kit cans. Next step is partial, then full mashing.

As long as you bitter your unhopped extract, then add flavour and aroma hops correctly. You can do, what you apparently think that you cant.

A properly hopped extract brew ( not using manufactured hopped cans, eg Coopers Lager, Draught ).......makes a very nice beer. According to quality ingredients of course.

Thanks. Have always confused extract/partial in the past. I am searching myself and reading up on everything I can about hops, but if anyone has a good reference they want to share, that would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Paleman]

Thanks. Have always confused extract/partial in the past. I am searching myself and reading up on everything I can about hops, but if anyone has a good reference they want to share, that would be greatly appreciated.

Try not to confuse yourself. Brewing is simple.

Kit Brewing is the basics. Using a bittered, manufactured can of malt, and adding whatever malt, hops to suit your needs, although driven by the kit can.

Extract brewing is using unhopped extract, powdered or liquid, and bittering and flavouring with hops to suit your needs. Aiming for a beer of your direct needs.

Partial Mashing is using and mashing basic, unconverted base grains, to really try and get a style your after. And to add some freshness of just cracked grains, and hop this to your needs + whatever extract you wish to add. Sort of half full mash, half extract.

Full mash, is to make your own beers, to suit your needs, with a full bill of freshly cracked grains and whatever hops you wish to bitter and flavour/aroma your brew. It's an absolute beer born of your hands. Fresh and new. You can of course stuff this up.

The difference in full extract, and full mashed beers is that usually full mashed beers are fresher. Of course, using freshly cracked grains as opposed to extracts that have been processed. I'ts that simple.

 

[Dubbo]

Hey freestyla,

you don't ask stupid questions. I have also been trawling the archives for the answer to the very same. Invaluble explanations for the new guys. I also felt there was a gap from kit brewing up to AG;'s that wasn't explained well enough (IMO anyway) and I have purchased and read "how to brew" about 5 times now and still couldn't quite get it until now.

Thanks to one and all

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

Having done around 40 grain brews over the past few months, I set about making a kit beer late last year. I've tried some kit beers from experienced kit brewers via the case swaps and was very impressed.

I bought the same kit I brewed when I was first brewing kits - a Coopers Pale Ale. I added malt extract and a litre of hefe wort I'd frozen and saved for a rainy yeast starter day. I added a little Amarillo and fermented it with US-05 in my fridge.

For a few weeks after I bottled it, it was disappointing - doubly so because I was trying to prove that all I had learned over the past few months would make a better kit beer.

I'm now drinking it with about two months of bottle age and it is a *very nice beer*.

Moral: We All-Grain Brewers will continue to have fun at kit brewers' expense, but you will grow to make lots of very good beer regardless of whether you stay with tins or move over to The Dark Side. Just brew lots, ask questions lots and send me one bottle of everything you brew for analysis.