Getting 'pilsner' Into Pilsner

[Bizier]

I was not going to say it, but I was thinking along the lines of Nick JD's volume tangent. From memory I have not tasted a single lager on a small scale homebrewer or micro which really tastes like a CZ or German example.

 

[DUANNE]

In my case with home kegged beer that's kept very cold from lagering through to consumption it's not a problem, it's just way too cold for the yeast to ferment.

Commercially, removing every single yeast cell is really not all that hard with diatamaceous earth filters - common in breweries - or of course pasteurisation as you suggested is used on nearly all packaged beer that does not require live yeast.

how cold are you keeping your beer. lager yeast is going to have no trouble fermenting at 4 degrees unfermented wort as added by german brewets is usef tocarbonate the beer because using sugar or external co2 is illegal under the rehiensgebot.

 

[labels]

how cold are you keeping your beer. lager yeast is going to have no trouble fermenting at 4 degrees unfermented wort as added by german brewets is usef tocarbonate the beer because using sugar or external co2 is illegal under the rehiensgebot.

Keeping the beer at about 0°C. You're right about the purity law, they are allowed to capture and store CO2 and force carbonate with it later.

I'll see if I can find the articles on some of their techniques. They don't do what I did by adding unfermented wort back to finished beer, I did this to test the theory and the results were surprising, certainly closer than anything else I have tried including critical attention to pH control - not saying it is not important but it is not the key to it either.

What I understand they do is to start lagering before terminal gravity. The end result is a beer that is under attenuated. There is a lot I don't understand, you can't do a diacetyl rest for example so lager yeast choice is critical as some produce lots while others produce very little under the right conditions.

This experiment has certainly spurred me on to continue down this path and see how far it gets me. By the way I used 100% Australian malt - BB Galaxy and have got much closer to the German style than using Weyermann malts so I don't think it's a German malt thing but a German technique thing.

-=Steve=-

 

[Nick JD]

My other suspicion is that they're using a proprietry spec (or even base) malt - the likes of which Weyermann cannot replicate.

 

[Bribie G]

Another thing the big German breweries nearly all do nowadays is a stepped infusion mash with 40 mins at 62 degrees, 40 mins at 72 then a mashout. Maybe that gives it a different grain character than a single infusion mash.

 

[Nick JD]

Doesn't work for me...

...hell, I'd mash while performing a Polka wearing Lederhosen if I could get that commercial malty goodness in my Pils.

 

[labels]

Another thing the big German breweries nearly all do nowadays is a stepped infusion mash with 40 mins at 62 degrees, 40 mins at 72 then a mashout. Maybe that gives it a different grain character than a single infusion mash.

I don't think it would play a part in achieving the flavour profile or if it does, it would be minor. The step infusion is probably a lot more to do with maximum extraction and maximum yield, pretty important in commercial brewing. As for a mash-out it's a moot point in home brewing, some swear by it while others like myself consider it a waste of time on such a small scale brewery.

Steve

 

[Nick JD]

A thread Turman started about leaving grain in the boil by accident and it's affect on flavours got me thinking.

Could that "pilsner graininess" be gotten by something like a separate boil (yes, settle down) of a small amount of say a darkish spec malt like a caramunich? A boil to deliberately extract the grainy/malty flavours in such a way that a long, delicate decoction boil can't achieve. I'm tempted to do a 500ml "decoction" of just caramunich 3 and acidulated malt and add it into a SMaSH pils for colour/flavour. What's the pH maximum required to not extract tannins? 5.5?

Would still pass the purity laws. Kinda like adding caramel - but a grainy, malt derived, intense additive. Could all of the colour in a grainy pilsner come from a completely separate, malt-derived additive? An mini uber-decoction, if you will?

 

[eamonnfoley]

From what I can gather the following is important: Correct mash ph, correct finished beer ph, Reinheitsgebot (no yeast nutrient, no whirlfloc, acid malt only etc), decent water profile, Hochkurz mash although a single infusion is meant to be just as good (mash thin about 4kg:1L to mimic German brewers), recipe (Continental pils malt), correct fermentation temps. And the Germans employ techniques such as mash and boil acidification, to get the best pH during the mash (enzymes), and for the boil (hop additions, reduce harshness). These can be useful in your quest for the perfect pils.

I have read an awful lot about German brewing & spoken to German brewmasters, and there is no secret ingredient. Just good processes and good brewing. Just need to employ them myself now

 

[Aydos]

From what I can gather the following is important: Correct mash ph, correct finished beer ph, Reinheitsgebot (no yeast nutrient, no whirlfloc, acid malt only etc), decent water profile, Hochkurz mash although a single infusion is meant to be just as good (mash thin about 4kg:1L to mimic German brewers), recipe (Continental pils malt), correct fermentation temps. And the Germans employ techniques such as mash and boil acidification, to get the best pH during the mash (enzymes), and for the boil (hop additions, reduce harshness). These can be useful in your quest for the perfect pils.

I have read an awful lot about German brewing & spoken to German brewmasters, and there is no secret ingredient. Just good processes and good brewing. Just need to employ them myself now

That mash thickness can't be right. The grains would absorb more than 1L. I'm sure you mean the other way around 4L:1KG

 

[Nick JD]

From what I can gather the following is important: Correct mash ph, correct finished beer ph, Reinheitsgebot (no yeast nutrient, no whirlfloc, acid malt only etc), decent water profile, Hochkurz mash although a single infusion is meant to be just as good (mash thin about 4kg:1L to mimic German brewers), recipe (Continental pils malt), correct fermentation temps. And the Germans employ techniques such as mash and boil acidification, to get the best pH during the mash (enzymes), and for the boil (hop additions, reduce harshness). These can be useful in your quest for the perfect pils.

I have read an awful lot about German brewing & spoken to German brewmasters, and there is no secret ingredient. Just good processes and good brewing. Just need to employ them myself now

From what I can gather, good processes and good brewing in the homebrew situation cannot replicate "that taste". But I'm happy to PM you my address so you can send me a bottle that does.

 

[eamonnfoley]

That mash thickness can't be right. The grains would absorb more than 1L. I'm sure you mean the other way around 4L:1KG

yeah typo - 4L:1kg

 

[eamonnfoley]

From what I can gather, good processes and good brewing in the homebrew situation cannot replicate "that taste". But I'm happy to PM you my address so you can send me a bottle that does.

I've tasted it in a homebrew setting - at least once in Perth. And several times overseas. I might clarifiy that the taste I'm talking about is the taste you'll get from a small brewer in Germany - which is far superior to the mass produced stuff. Certainly not claiming to be an expert brewer of german lagers, but I have enough good information, evidence and advice from reputable sources to realise there is no secret ingredient. Its just takes damn good technical brewing - thats why the Germans are still the masters IMO.

I'll send you that bottle when I finally get it right

 

[Nick JD]

I'll send you that bottle when I finally get it right

I look forward to it.

Can you give us a rundown on the parameters ze Germans are accurately controlling in de Breweries that give them this damn good technical edge, please? It's more helpful than suggesting it takes some kinda expertise that the brewers on this thread (some of them rather worthy brewers) don't have, and are too sloppy in their techniques to ever crack it.

That'd be great.

 

[eamonnfoley]

I look forward to it.

Can you give us a rundown on the parameters ze Germans are accurately controlling in de Breweries that give them this damn good technical edge, please? It's more helpful than suggesting it takes some kinda expertise that the brewers on this thread (some of them rather worthy brewers) don't have, and are too sloppy in their techniques to ever crack it.

That'd be great.

Not suggesting anything about anyone on the forum. Are you doing all of the following?
Brewing water: RO then salts to get. Ca 50, SO4 about 50, Cl about 50, HCO3 between 0-30, other ions low or zero (this is for german pils, not Czech).
Weyermann pils malt as base. Hop schedule I'm sure your aware of (Hallertau or spalt or tett etc.)
Mash pH of 5.4 measured at room temp on your calibrated meter (25C). Alternatively pH=5.5 (at 25C) during mash, and adjust to 5.4 (at 25C) with lactic during boil. And by the way get a handheld meter if your a serious brewer.
64-65C single infusion mash (for German pils - dry) or equivalent Hochkurz schedule
Mash thickness about 4L:1kg
If your looking for commercial style pils - go the fly sparge (grainy), if you're looking for small brewery style - go the batch sparge (2/3 volume mash, 1/3 volume sparge is typical)
Aeration with pure oxygen about 10-12mg/L
Pitch at 6C (proper lager yeast count - huge starter or very healthy slurry from previous batch). Ferment about 8-9C
Diacetyl rest if required at end.
dont use whirlfloc or yeast nutrient (probably not a big deal though)
Preferably use a spund valve to carbonate beer in fermenter (I use a keg to ferment), or transfer prior to FG and spund serving keg).
Closed transfers from fermenter to Co2 purged keg to prevent oxygen intake.
Finished lager should have a pH of about 4.4 (I've measured good lagers such as Schlenkerla & Weihenstephan). Needs to be below 4.5 with the rare exception of high gravity beers (microbiological stability). This is a little higher than a typical ale because a lager fermentation doesnt drop pH as much as an ale ferment.
Lager away, but fresh unfiltered pilsners are the best beers you can drink (IMO)

 

[mje1980]

So, you use all RO water, adjust it, then heat up for mash etc?

Do you take a sample of the mash, cool down, then check with the meter?

You adjust ph prior to boiling ?

 

[eamonnfoley]

So, you use all RO water, adjust it, then heat up for mash etc?

Do you take a sample of the mash, cool down, then check with the meter?

You adjust ph prior to boiling ?

I typically put all my salts in the mash, and sparge with RO water.
some acid in the boil is optional if you want a two stage pH adjustment (5.5 in mash and 5.4 in boil).
Yes, cool small sample down in fridge to room temp, then take pH measurement. If you read Strong's book he talks about pH at room temp being higher than mash temp values (by 0.3-0.4). The 5.2 to 5.4 range you hear is measured at mash temp (which would destroy our meters).

 

[labels]

Mash pH is important but for the most part the mash will be in a tight range anyway, this occurs naturally if you use decent water. Sparging is where the pH tends to rise. I add a few drops of phosphoric acid to the sparge water that keeps the mash pH in check. Can you go overboard? No, not unless you're silly. If you bring your sparge water down to pH 3.00 for example, the buffering effect of the mash will stop it going out of range.

-=Steve=-

 

[eamonnfoley]

Mash pH is important but for the most part the mash will be in a tight range anyway, this occurs naturally if you use decent water. Sparging is where the pH tends to rise. I add a few drops of phosphoric acid to the sparge water that keeps the mash pH in check. Can you go overboard? No, not unless you're silly. If you bring your sparge water down to pH 3.00 for example, the buffering effect of the mash will stop it going out of range.

-=Steve=-

Your right, but the OP is trying to nail the perfect pils - a delicate beer that needs huge attention to detail.

 

[Florian]

Your right, but the OP is trying to nail the perfect pils - a delicate beer that needs huge attention to detail.

:lol: :lol:

Foles, who's that OP you're talking about?