Getting 'pilsner' Into Pilsner

[labels]

Bohemian lager? I thought this thread was about German Pils?

Yes it is but this is the only lager recipe on their site that details fermentation. They suggest the last of fermentation (from 1.018 down) is done in a pressurised vessel supporting my earlier statement about this procedure. This is a typical German fermentation regime so I thought it might be of interest

Steve

 

[Renzo]

It's on the Weyermann site, but only ze German one. Description says it's for better foam stability.

http://www.weyermann.de/ger/produkte.asp?i...2&sprache=1

I know. But no-one in Oz stocks it and it's a PITA to order it, it seems.

 

[Renzo]

Yes it is but this is the only lager recipe on their site that details fermentation. They suggest the last of fermentation (from 1.018 down) is done in a pressurised vessel supporting my earlier statement about this procedure. This is a typical German fermentation regime so I thought it might be of interest

Steve

Spunding a tank is common in germany and also a lot of other breweries around the world. I use a spunding valve on my SS conical for lagers. Check out that PDF link I posted a few pages back in this thread re SO2 (pg 36, 37). I still think that Chit malt is the key.

Schoenramer Pils
Brauerei Schoenram, Schoenram, Bavaria
• soft water, low alkalinity, chloride and sulfate ions enhances body and aroma respectively
• very pale barley variety with a lot of enzyme activity (we use the variety Barke, the palest available)
• intense mash, single-decoction best as it boosts attenuation. Rests vary according to year, but a long
time around 65C is necessary
• high attenuation (>87% apparent) enhances hop character (dryness) and at the same time, through the
higher level of alcohol, adds a sweetness to balance out the bitterness
• I am a proponent of aroma hop varieties and use only aroma varieties for my Pils (as for all my beers),
even for the bittering - 4 different varieties given 5 times, more than 50% as late hopping, all are Bavarian
hop varieties from the Hallertau and Spalt (the varieties and combination a secret I'm not at liberty to give
away)
• enough evaporation to drive out DMS ( > 5.5% )
• acidification of mash and wort to adjust pH (lactic acid derived from the malt and propagated to around
1.5%)
• hot trub separation with the whirlpool, cold trub separation with flotation tank
• fermentation in open vessels beginning around 7C, max. temperature 9C, pitching rate 18 million cells
per ml (about 1 liter of thick yeast per hl)
• ferment close to final attenuation, cool to 3C over 2 days (total fermentation time with cooling around 8
days) add 8% kraeusen beer when transferring to lagering
• we skim our fermentation head almost daily
• hold in tank at 3C for 2 weeks until vigorous secondary fermentation begins to calm down, gradually
cool to below 0C (around minus one) over two weeks
• last two weeks below freezing, total lagering 6 weeks, 5 weeks is also OK, but not less
• ensure minimal oxygen take-up at bottling

 

[labels]

Spunding a tank is common in germany and also a lot of other breweries around the world. I use a spunding valve on my SS conical for lagers. Check out that PDF link I posted a few pages back in this thread re SO2 (pg 36, 37). I still think that Chit malt is the key.

Thanks Renzo, I am familiar with that document. Interesting you are using the spunding technique. What do you use as a spunding valve? What about the pressure valves on pressure cookers, they are 10 -15lbs/" usually. As I said I wouldn't know what pressure to hold the tank at. I won't be investing in a conical because of refigeration restrictions but I thought the 50L keg with a shortened dip tube might do the job.

Steve

 

[booargy]

Thanks Renzo, I am familiar with that document. Interesting you are using the spunding technique. What do you use as a spunding valve? What about the pressure valves on pressure cookers, they are 10 -15lbs/" usually. As I said I wouldn't know what pressure to hold the tank at. I won't be investing in a conical because of refigeration restrictions but I thought the 50L keg with a shortened dip tube might do the job.

Steve

labels this is the one I useVisit My Website

 

[Renzo]

Mines pretty much the same as booargys. I just quick disconnect it on to the top of my conical once fermentations almost done. Works well.

 

[mr_wibble]

Hi,

You can buy Spitz Malt online from "brew and smoke" shop ~

http://www.brauundrauchshop.ch/100/con_lis...sStartPageNext=

The link is to the per-kilogram price, but they also sell it in 25kg bags.
I would expect air-mail postage on up to four kilograms to be around 40 franks (AUD$45)

I used to buy my homebrew stuff from these guys for a while when I lived overseas, and only ever had great service.

I emailed them a while ago and asked if they'd ship to AU, and they said it was no problem, but were concerned about the postage costs.

The website is only available in German & French, if you need help with it the German please feel free to PM me.

So, hopefully this helps with the Pilsner odyssey.

cheers,
-kt

 

[labels]

Hi,

You can buy Spitz Malt online from "brew and smoke" shop ~

http://www.brauundrauchshop.ch/100/con_lis...sStartPageNext=

The link is to the per-kilogram price, but they also sell it in 25kg bags.
I would expect air-mail postage on up to four kilograms to be around 40 franks (AUD$45)

I used to buy my homebrew stuff from these guys for a while when I lived overseas, and only ever had great service.

I emailed them a while ago and asked if they'd ship to AU, and they said it was no problem, but were concerned about the postage costs.

The website is only available in German & French, if you need help with it the German please feel free to PM me.

So, hopefully this helps with the Pilsner odyssey.

cheers,
-kt

Thank you very much it does help

Lets see what others think - bulk lots?

 

[Renzo]

Thank you very much it does help

Lets see what others think - bulk lots?

I'd be into that. I'm looking to get between 2-5kg

 

[manticle]

I'd have a crack at 5 - 10 kg if the price etc was right.

 

[Florian]

You can also buy it by the Kilo on Ebay Germany:

There are two sellers, both sell milled and unmilled.

Postage is about 17 Euros for up to 2kg on DHL (the seller doesn't state this, though), so a bit cheaper than the swiss option.

Still not sure if it brings any other results than unmalted barley. Even on the german forums people seem to think that it's only a way to get around the Reinheitsgebot.

 

[labels]

Resurecting this topic, my final conclusion to date is the Germans start their lagering procedure before fermentation is completely finished. This leaves an unfermented portion in the final beer hence the malty taste. From what information I have managed to find it seems that these pilsners are only about 90% to 96% attenuated.

I am putting this into the 'too hard basket' for home brewing at my level. However, on my last lager brew, I kept back some unfermented, unhopped wort and added that to the keg at about 8%.

In conclusion: Yes it did add a pilsner type sweet malty taste to the finished beer similar to German beer. But not good enough. For one thing, the wort that was added was drawn off after only a couple of minutes on the boil which left a slightly 'raw' malty taste in the beer. I am going to have another go but boil down the wort in a separate vessel before storing cold and adding back at kegging time. The experiment was partly successfull and I think it's worth pursuing.

-=Steve=-

 

[Florian]

Why not take your wort straight from the kettle at the end of boil?

That probably gives you an even more "unfermented" component, as you're also adding bitterness and hop flavour back at the same ratio.

Also, you don't need a separate vessel, brew to your usual volumes, ferment with slightly less volume, and end up (after adding the wort) with the same volume as usual in the keg.

 

[Nick JD]

So they rely on filtering out every last yeast cell to stop the bottles exploding? Or is it pasteurisation?

You'd think a bottle bomb or two would have happened if this is their method.

 

[Damien13]

damn-it.... so no-one knows????
wow.... this has to be the only question that I have ever seen unanswered!
Awesome.. no I take that back. It blows...

 

[Bizier]

I seriously disagree with this hypothesis.

If you lager a beer before terminal gravity you will exacerbate "green" flavours including VDK and acetaldehyde.

 

[Nick JD]

I'm currently working on the pH argument.

They didn't go to those lengths to get around the rhinazigeeerobot law with acidulated malt for nothing mefinks.

Started with 2% of the grist.

I still reckon it's got to do with fermenting and CCing in HUGE volumes.

 

[labels]

So they rely on filtering out every last yeast cell to stop the bottles exploding? Or is it pasteurisation?

You'd think a bottle bomb or two would have happened if this is their method.

In my case with home kegged beer that's kept very cold from lagering through to consumption it's not a problem, it's just way too cold for the yeast to ferment.

Commercially, removing every single yeast cell is really not all that hard with diatamaceous earth filters - common in breweries - or of course pasteurisation as you suggested is used on nearly all packaged beer that does not require live yeast.

 

[Damien13]

The weird thing about this is I actually find that the graininess in massive doses (esp in the cheaper german beers) is a bit much, and makes the beer interesting but less drinkable. But the fact that I am not sure how it happens or how to control it bugs the crap out of me. The closest I came was a Dortmunder Export that I tapped off for a comp and forgot about for 3 months in the fridge. That had a SMIDGEN of the taste, but just not enough.
Stupid question, but has everyone actually tried lagering for ages to see. I could never be stuffed... or was never patient enough to ACTUALLY lager the way I should. like I said... I am sure it is a stupid question, and loads of people try it... I just don't know anyone who actually does.. just lots of dudes who talk about it.
Geez I am not even drunk and that was a ramble of a post. meh... whatever.

 

[labels]

I seriously disagree with this hypothesis.

If you lager a beer before terminal gravity you will exacerbate "green" flavours including VDK and acetaldehyde.

Seroiusly disagree or not, go trawling through the internet in the rightbdirections and you'll find plenty of information about it, this is not a personal opinion thing.