Getting 'pilsner' Into Pilsner

[dmcke109]

I used to pitch warm and then lower to fermentation temp but someone (can't remember who) told me to give chilling the beer to a lower temp, then aerate the bugger out of it and pitch a quality amount of the right yeast for a lager. Since doing that my lagers have really improved. I've since found out the technical term for this is the Narziss fermentation. This fermentation method seems to reduce esters and diacetyl resulting in a 'cleaner' beer.

I must admit I haven't done decoctions in a while - I have a 13month old that keeps me nice and busy so I seem to skip that step nowadays

I do pretty much what you do except I pitch warm and immediately put into a freezer at -2C. As the thermal mass warms up, the freezer is set at 9C with a 2C differential. I give up on decoctions, I seriously doubt any German beer you buy uses a decoction these days.
In short, you're saying tempertaure control is important at all steps and I agree.
I am more than happy with my lagers and so is everyone else that drinks them so I'll stick to my method.
The only thing I don't agree with you is hard water. Pilsner is made from soft water, although northen German beers like DAB use moderatley hard water which is probably what you're trying to copy.

Steve

 

[Nick JD]

If you search the internets just about every brewing forum has someone ask this same question at some point in time and no one ever has a good answer to it. Strangely enough, almost all the threads cycle through the same suggestions: pH, Malt selection, boil, water chem, decoction or no, oxidized... etc etc.

Chit malt seems to get some weight in this thread.

http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic....=1&t=101653

 

[labels]

If you search the internets just about every brewing forum has someone ask this same question at some point in time and no one ever has a good answer to it. Strangely enough, almost all the threads cycle through the same suggestions: pH, Malt selection, boil, water chem, decoction or no, oxidized... etc etc.

Chit malt seems to get some weight in this thread.

No doubt you're correct. Yes, I've been through it on RCB a few years back. But as homebrewers become more knowledgable new information comes to light.

Chit malt is a very undermodified malt and the German's answer to getting around the purity laws. FYI, I have tried using a proportion of unmalted crushed barley (malting quality) to simulate this and still made little difference.

I am not one to give up easily Nick, either.

Steve

 

[Renzo]

I would love to get hold of some chit malt and have tried flaked barley and it also made little difference. And from everything I've read flaked barley is not the same as chit malt anyhow. This w/kend I'll try Wes's recipe and method.

 

[Renzo]

I found this also online with some authentic recipes etc at the end. The Shoenramer Pils brewer doesn't say much about sparge temp but lists his malt ingredients and interestingly does a single decoction. I'm pretty sure decoction is not the flavour I'm tasting in German beers as I don't think weihenstephan do one. An interesting read anyhow.

View attachment SteveHolle_GermanBrewing_1_.pdf

 

[Nick JD]

80% Vienna, 20% Munich?

 

[Renzo]

80% Vienna, 20% Munich?

Which one?

 

[wessmith]

Wes, Roughly how much phos acid p/litre did you use taking into account your water was ph6.8. I realise that everyones water is different but just a ballpark so I can try it without adding too much by adding a bit at a time while I measure. FYI I use 100% RO water and acid malt and CACL to get mash PH low but haven't even considered sparge with phos acid. BTW do most hb stores sell Phos acid?

Hi Renzo, sorry I missed your post. Last first - few HB stores will sell H3PO4 and it cant be mailed unfortunately. With 100% RO you will need to rebuild more than the calcium. Some of the other trace elements like magnesium and zinc are essential as are the sulphate and chloride ions. You dont mention pH - can you measure? if the pH is around 7 or less then you dont need to add any acid to the RO sparge water BUT you will need some calcium content. One thing you might consider is blending your non RO water with the RO product to get a balance of mineral content.

As a general comment I would be reluctant to add any acid to RO water for sparging. As a guide I used around 1ml of H3PO4 per 100l water with the town supply at my old address but there was some bicarbonate hardness and around 60ppm total calcium. You really need to know your water analysis to determine what to do.

Can I suggest you read Noonans "New Brewing Lager Beer" - his chapter on water is very good.

Wes

 

[Renzo]

Thanks for your reply Wes.

With 100% RO (for pils & lagers) I use approx 2.5% sauermalz and approx 1/2 tablespoon CaCl (and a touch of sulphate in the kettle) and that usally gets me around ph5.2 in the mash for an all pils malt brew. I also use Wyeast Nutrient in the kettle.

I bought some citric acid which I was going to add to my sparge water to make sure it's around ph6 before I sparge but I might just add some CaCl instead?.

 

[wessmith]

Renzo, all your assumptions seem to ignore the actual pH. Try away but you need at some point to measure the pH to know what is really happening. Why would you need citric or any other acid if the pH is already in the ballpark? Remember this topic is about getting pilsner into a pilsner. The style is so subtle and probably the most difficult of all styles to get right.

Wes

 

[labels]

Hi Renzo, sorry I missed your post. Last first - few HB stores will sell H3PO4 and it cant be mailed unfortunately. With 100% RO you will need to rebuild more than the calcium. Some of the other trace elements like magnesium and zinc are essential as are the sulphate and chloride ions. You dont mention pH - can you measure? if the pH is around 7 or less then you dont need to add any acid to the RO sparge water BUT you will need some calcium content. One thing you might consider is blending your non RO water with the RO product to get a balance of mineral content.

As a general comment I would be reluctant to add any acid to RO water for sparging. As a guide I used around 1ml of H3PO4 per 100l water with the town supply at my old address but there was some bicarbonate hardness and around 60ppm total calcium. You really need to know your water analysis to determine what to do.

Can I suggest you read Noonans "New Brewing Lager Beer" - his chapter on water is very good

I read you article with some interest regarding adding calcium back to RO water. The last few batches of lager I have made have turned out extremely good using 100% RO water without any additives. Measured pH before treatment is around pH 8.5 and about 7.3pH after. I add a minute amount of Phos acid to drop it down a tad. However, measuring pH of the mash during the sparge is probably more important than the water.
How many and what quantity of minerals there are in the malt is something I don't know. The plant must uptake minerals during growth and they would therefore end up in the mash and have an effect on the mash. I see little referrence to this when talking about the mineral content of water but is probably worth exploring.
All my ferments are strong and vigorous (as far as lagers go) and ferment out within the acceptable time frame.
Does this mean mineral content of water is very important, somewhat important or not important when brewing light lagers?

Steve

 

[manticle]

Last first - few HB stores will sell H3PO4 and it cant be mailed unfortunately.

Are you sure? I have bought Phosphoric acid a couple of times from my HBS via mailorder. Starsan is also often mailed.

Is there a particular concentration that is illegal to mail (think the stuff I get is around 80% but can't check because last time I went lactic instead of phosphoric)?

 

[Renzo]

Renzo, all your assumptions seem to ignore the actual pH. Try away but you need at some point to measure the pH to know what is really happening. Why would you need citric or any other acid if the pH is already in the ballpark? Remember this topic is about getting pilsner into a pilsner. The style is so subtle and probably the most difficult of all styles to get right.

Wes

No probs. My ph is all good in the mash ( with sauermalz and CaCl added to mash only). I was under the assumption that to sparge ( I fly sparge) with 85C water I may need to add citric to the sparge water only to lower the PH of the RO Sparge water ( have already accounted for the mash) in order to avoid tannin extraxtion?

I do measure the PH of the mash with my handheld PH meter, but to date have ignored the sparge water totally and just sparged with 100% RO.

 

[manticle]

I read you article with some interest regarding adding calcium back to RO water. The last few batches of lager I have made have turned out extremely good using 100% RO water without any additives. Measured pH before treatment is around pH 8.5 and about 7.3pH after. I add a minute amount of Phos acid to drop it down a tad. However, measuring pH of the mash during the sparge is probably more important than the water.
How many and what quantity of minerals there are in the malt is something I don't know. The plant must uptake minerals during growth and they would therefore end up in the mash and have an effect on the mash. I see little referrence to this when talking about the mineral content of water but is probably worth exploring.
All my ferments are strong and vigorous (as far as lagers go) and ferment out within the acceptable time frame.
Does this mean mineral content of water is very important, somewhat important or not important when brewing light lagers?

Steve

My understanding of reading about water chemistry (not specifically for lagers but for things common to all beers like yeast health, mash efficiency etc) is that calcium, zinc, phosphates and magnesium should be at appropriate levels for a variety of reasons.

Magnesium and phosphates should be in adequate levels already with most regular mashes as the malt has sufficient amounts, calcium may need to be added and zinc will also likely need to be added (especially/will absolutely if you are using mineral free water).

Carbonate and bicarbonate levels are also important but mainly to ensure they are not too high (not an issue with RO water).

Sulphate and chloride levels mainly affect flavour balance (bitterness and malt perception) as long as they are not ridiculously high.

The article Renzo linked highlights the importance of pH in the mash but also in the fermentation and in the final product - something I've never explored.

 

[labels]

After more researching I think I might have come up with something that has some merit.

I have NOT tried this and it may not be practical at a home brew level.

Fermenation and lagering.

After the boil, drop the temperature to around 4C. Rack the wort off the cold trub (which has formed greater than normal due to the cold temperature).

Pitch at 4C. Your yeast starters should also be at 4C ( but not crashed chilled to 4C of course, you could inhibit viability), the wort should be well oxygenated.

Allow the temperature to rise to 9C and ferment until about 60% to 70% attenuated.

Rack the beer into kegs and purge the head space with CO2. Fit the kegs with a pressure bleed valve to stop excessive pressure build up ( I don't know what pressure but set at 10psi sounds reasonable)

Drop by 0.5C per day unti 4C is reached and then hold for four weeks.

After four weeks, the beer should be attenuated to about 95%, slight under attenuation is desirable.

During this period of time, the beer (a) finishes fermenting (not 100% (B) lagers and and is © naturally carbonated.

Drop the temperature to -2C until the yeast has floculated and polyphenols and proteins have dropped out and chillhaze drops out too if present.

Rack to another keg and filter at this time if required. Note the dip tubes on the kegs need to be shorter or some device fitted to them so they leave sediment behind. Note, racking should be done under pressure and with air purged from the kegs to avoid oxidising problems.

Adjust carbonation and serve.

I have shifted the focus for getting the 'Pilsner' taste from wort production to fermentation and lagering techniques as I think this may produce the results I am seeking

Steve

 

[hockadays]

This process is bunging and i have been doing it alot recently and its its great for keeping some of the hop flavour in that quite often gets scrubbed out by the release of co2. I think part of the flavour your after comes from the yeast as i suggested try the munich lager wyeast strain with the temp profile your talking about and the other flavour Im pretty sure comes from the chit malt. Give that strain a try and report back. I think youll be suprised. That yeast emphasises the malt and its pretty close with the weyermann pils malt but not exactly hence why I think its also the chit malt.

 

[Renzo]

This process is bunging and i have been doing it alot recently and its its great for keeping some of the hop flavour in that quite often gets scrubbed out by the release of co2. I think part of the flavour your after comes from the yeast as i suggested try the munich lager wyeast strain with the temp profile your talking about and the other flavour Im pretty sure comes from the chit malt. Give that strain a try and report back. I think youll be suprised. That yeast emphasises the malt and its pretty close with the weyermann pils malt but not exactly hence why I think its also the chit malt.

I also believe chit malt ( spitzmalz) may be the key. Question is, where can you get chit malt from in OZ. From what I've read chit malt is not the same as flaked barley.

 

[Nick JD]

I also believe chit malt ( spitzmalz) may be the key. Question is, where can you get chit malt from in OZ. From what I've read chit malt is not the same as flaked barley.

It's on the Weyermann site, but only ze German one. Description says it's for better foam stability.

http://www.weyermann.de/ger/produkte.asp?i...2&sprache=1

 

[labels]

This process is bunging and i have been doing it alot recently and its its great for keeping some of the hop flavour in that quite often gets scrubbed out by the release of co2. I think part of the flavour your after comes from the yeast as i suggested try the munich lager wyeast strain with the temp profile your talking about and the other flavour Im pretty sure comes from the chit malt. Give that strain a try and report back. I think youll be suprised. That yeast emphasises the malt and its pretty close with the weyermann pils malt but not exactly hence why I think its also the chit malt.

Yes, that sounds pretty interesting and makes a lot of sense. The chit malt seems impossible to get so I'll work with what's available.

This information is from Weyermann's website, Bohemian Lager recipe and suggests that lagering starts before fermentation is finished in a pressurised vessel ( I am thinking of getting a working 50L keg for this as I brew in 50L batches)

Fermentation:
Yeast: Fermentis Saflager W-34/70 dry yeast
Pitching temperature: 10C (50F) F
Fermentation temperature: 12C (54F)
Tank capped at a gravity of 1.018 (4.5P)
Lagering/conditioning temperature in cylindro-conical tank: 1C (34F)
Filtration: On July 15, 2004. <end Weyermann quote>

However, it won't be until early 2013 before I get the chance to try this.

Steve

 

[Nick JD]

Yes, that sounds pretty interesting and makes a lot of sense. The chit malt seems impossible to get so I'll work with what's available.

This information is from Weyermann's website, Bohemian Lager recipe and suggests that lagering starts before fermentation is finished in a pressurised vessel ( I am thinking of getting a working 50L keg for this as I brew in 50L batches)

Fermentation:
Yeast: Fermentis Saflager W-34/70 dry yeast
Pitching temperature: 10C (50F) F
Fermentation temperature: 12C (54F)
Tank capped at a gravity of 1.018 (4.5P)
Lagering/conditioning temperature in cylindro-conical tank: 1C (34F)
Filtration: On July 15, 2004. <end Weyermann quote>

However, it won't be until early 2013 before I get the chance to try this.

Steve

Bohemian lager? I thought this thread was about German Pils?