Getting 'pilsner' Into Pilsner

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Nick, do you think replicating the process (including pasteurisation) is a fruitless experiment?

And when you mentioned not all pasteurised beers have the flavour were you referring to not all pasteurised Pilsners or just beer in general?

It's not pasteurisation. Nearly all commercial beers would taste of it.

Go get a Bitburger. That taste. Commercial Euro Pilsner.

It's a super malty-sweetness that's got a caramel edge. It's that "commercial" taste.
 
Might be nothing, though a while ago i was at scharers little brewery. I know it had issues with consistency, but i had their german lager, and it had that taste, was sen-*******-sational, and i heard they were using light crystal in the grain bill. Again, might not be much, but the "Beer Styles" book on Continental pilsner ( which is given good reviews by George Fix, and Greg Noonan ) mentions light crystal or caramel malt should be used over munich etc "for enhancing the malt qualities of a full bodied beer". It does mentions carapils, but also clearly mention the lighter lovibond caramel malts "and the lower grades ( 20 and 40 degrees Lovibond ) are most suitable for Pilsners and impart a sweet, mild, caramel smoothness". Chit malt is also mentioned, but says nothing about adding flavour.
 
http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/foru...?topic=12545.30 first post top of page 3.

I've gotten pretty close with weyerman bohemian but still not quite the same. I've been on this search for a about a year now as well.

Is there some way we could do a bulk buy of chit malt (spitz malz) as no-one is interested in selling it or stocking it apparently. I've tried Bintani and cryer direct and had no real luck.

I'm pretty convinced the spitz malt is the flavour as most of the german breweries use a hochkurz regime nowadays. Low PH, yeast etc etc are all a given. One other factor may be the spunding the ferementer but I'm calling the spitz malz is the key.

A fresh Weihenstephan pils has it in bucketloads as does Spaten etc. Even DAB has it.
 
Thanks for input.

Decoctions. Could go on for hours about this subject but the 'Great Decoction Experiment' from a few years ago from famed homebrewer Denny Conn (USA) showed decoction made little difference (all side-by-side experiments) and my personal experience has concurred.

Boh Pils Malt. Got one under way at the moment, due to be kegged next weekend. RO water, Boh Pils malt (conditioned before crushing), two step mash, tight pH control, tight temp control, Melanoidin added (5%) Saaz pellets, WY Urquell yeast, super tight fermenation temps -=- will report back. Total time 6 weeks

However, I should be able to get there using Ausiie malts. Aussie malt is used in a lot of Asian beers which copy the Germans and the pilsner taste is there as well, although not as pronounced.

I've got a few ideas - they are a bit radical but I would prefer others to chime in first.

Steve


I think the Melanoidin helps a lot, I like it at 10%. The only thing I find it does add more color that traditional German lagers.

QldKev
 
hi labels, it may have to do with your process , not sure what yours is.
I can get the grainy flavour but not that malty sweetness though I havent tried crystal malts just Pils, carapils and munich but have noticed when using them the grainyness starts to dissapear the more that are added.
I fly sparge and have always had the grainy flavour in my beers, originally when I started mashing I was getting it in my ales also ! though can't remeber what I did to stop it, I also sparge with 85-90 deg water and no mashout.
My water profile is basically bland which is excellent for lagers/pils.
 
hi labels, it may have to do with your process , not sure what yours is.
I can get the grainy flavour but not that malty sweetness though I havent tried crystal malts just Pils, carapils and munich but have noticed when using them the grainyness starts to dissapear the more that are added.
I fly sparge and have always had the grainy flavour in my beers, originally when I started mashing I was getting it in my ales also ! though can't remeber what I did to stop it, I also sparge with 85-90 deg water and no mashout.
My water profile is basically bland which is excellent for lagers/pils.

I reckon you're getting close with that. From my sketchy research so far, I understand the Germans sparge with very hot water close to boiling point. That will pull a grainy flavour from the husks so I will be trying that with my next batch. The lager that I have nearly ready (made from Wey Boh Pils) was sparged with over 80C water.

I have read the Germans pay particular attention to pH. This ties in nicely with hot sparging. If the pH is low enough you won't pull astringent compounds from the husks when sparging even if the water is over 75C. I have no problem with malty sweetness in my beers, just need the graininess to get there.

In any case, I'm pretty sure the unique German pils taste is method based rather than ingredients based.

Steve
 
Edmund Resch was a German brewer (OK, that's meaningless)

But maby cloning this using a decoction mash may get you closer. Always tasted way grainy to me.

large_ReschsPilsener.gif.jpg
 
I reckon you're getting close with that. From my sketchy research so far, I understand the Germans sparge with very hot water close to boiling point. That will pull a grainy flavour from the husks so I will be trying that with my next batch. The lager that I have nearly ready (made from Wey Boh Pils) was sparged with over 80C water.

I have read the Germans pay particular attention to pH. This ties in nicely with hot sparging. If the pH is low enough you won't pull astringent compounds from the husks when sparging even if the water is over 75C. I have no problem with malty sweetness in my beers, just need the graininess to get there.

In any case, I'm pretty sure the unique German pils taste is method based rather than ingredients based.

Steve

Actually your getting pretty close Steve. It is mostly method based but also a rigid adherence to some basic principles. It starts with the brewing liquor - it MUST be low in minerals, no bicarb hardness at all and have a pH factor around 7.0 or slightly less. Few municipal water supplies in Australia meet this criteria without treatment. The base malt is also critical in that it needs to have sufficient precursors to allow some melanoiden development in mashing and boiling. You dont need a decoction, in fact few if any German breweries still use this technique. Mash pH needs to be right on the button - usually 5.1 to 5.2. To achieve this will require some degree of mash acidulation - not after mashin, but calculated and implemented prior to mashin. Around 1% to 2% of acidulated malt is the recommended addition - any more than that can skew the flavour of the finished beer and in any event if you are not in the desired pH range then there are still problems with the brewing liquor calcium and/or bicarb content.

Sparging (fly sparging is the German norm) is also critical and generally should be around 85C with a pH no more than 6.5. The sparge water will probably need to be separately acidified to achieve that pH range. I use phosphoric acid to achieve this but again you cant "fix" high mineral water simply by adding an acid.

Here is a recipe that I used for competition pilsners back when I did those things. Water supply was from Robertson on the Jambaroo Mountain Road. There is a bottled water supplier who operates from a bore that taps into the main aquifer that eventually feeds down into Wollongong. The standing pH of that water is 6.8. That is very low because of the low mineral content and is ideal for the style. The same can be achieved by using a partial RO blend with most municipal supplies.

German pilsner malt (Weyermann, Bestmalz) 88 to 90%
German Carapils 8 to 10%
Acidulated malt 2%

Mash L/G ratio 3:1
Mashin @ 58 - 60C 15 mins (do not allow the mash to drop below 58C)
Raise to 65.5 to 66.5C till starch negative (usually around 20 mins)
Raise to 70C 15mins (check a sample of wort AND grist for starch negative)
Raise to mashout @ 78C for 10 mins

Sparge @ 85C

Boil 70mins and chill to 12 -15C and pitch yeast (I use 34/70 and ferment at 9C)

Its not that simple but is typically what the German brewers I have visited over the years use. And writing this reminds of the unfiltered pilsner that is on tap direct from the keg at the small brewery bar at Mahrs Brau in Bamberg. A standout!

Remember that a pilsner is the most subtle of styles.

Wes
 
Actually your getting pretty close Steve. It is mostly method based but also a rigid adherence to some basic principles. It starts with the brewing liquor - it MUST be low in minerals, no bicarb hardness at all and have a pH factor around 7.0 or slightly less. Few municipal water supplies in Australia meet this criteria without treatment. The base malt is also critical in that it needs to have sufficient precursors to allow some melanoiden development in mashing and boiling. You dont need a decoction, in fact few if any German breweries still use this technique. Mash pH needs to be right on the button - usually 5.1 to 5.2. To achieve this will require some degree of mash acidulation - not after mashin, but calculated and implemented prior to mashin. Around 1% to 2% of acidulated malt is the recommended addition - any more than that can skew the flavour of the finished beer and in any event if you are not in the desired pH range then there are still problems with the brewing liquor calcium and/or bicarb content.

Sparging (fly sparging is the German norm) is also critical and generally should be around 85C with a pH no more than 6.5. The sparge water will probably need to be separately acidified to achieve that pH range. I use phosphoric acid to achieve this but again you cant "fix" high mineral water simply by adding an acid.

Here is a recipe that I used for competition pilsners back when I did those things. Water supply was from Robertson on the Jambaroo Mountain Road. There is a bottled water supplier who operates from a bore that taps into the main aquifer that eventually feeds down into Wollongong. The standing pH of that water is 6.8. That is very low because of the low mineral content and is ideal for the style. The same can be achieved by using a partial RO blend with most municipal supplies.

Wes

Spot on with my thoughts. For the beer I have nearly ready I used partial RO water (I have a RO unit) and phosphoric acid to bring my mash water down to around pH6 and done the same with the sparge water. I batch sparged at 85C. My mash was at pH 5.1 from start to finish (after sparging). I think it's important not to let the pH rise during the sparge.

Of course, I am yet to try this beer, it is still seven days away from being ready.

I am a little reluctant to use carapils malt, too much can add an odd flavour and I also see it as a cheats malt, compensating for poor mashing techniques. Probably a bit biased here.

Steve
 
The Carapils is in there to promote head and give a subtle sweetness. It must be German Carapils though. There are other crystals called carapils and caramalt etc that are entirely different. Certainly not a "cheats" malt - it was developed in Germany many decades ago for the pilsner style.

Wes
 
. Around 1% to 2% of acidulated malt is the recommended addition - any more than that can skew the flavour of the finished beer
Wes
Wess
I cant agree with this part, I regularly use 5% acid due to water composition and have found no added skew to my beers.
I specialise in lager and pils and have produced trophy beers with 5% Weyermann acidulated malt.
Nev
 
Thanks for input.

Decoctions. Could go on for hours about this subject but the 'Great Decoction Experiment' from a few years ago from famed homebrewer Denny Conn (USA) showed decoction made little difference (all side-by-side experiments) and my personal experience has concurred.

Boh Pils Malt. Got one under way at the moment, due to be kegged next weekend. RO water, Boh Pils malt (conditioned before crushing), two step mash, tight pH control, tight temp control, Melanoidin added (5%) Saaz pellets, WY Urquell yeast, super tight fermenation temps -=- will report back. Total time 6 weeks

However, I should be able to get there using Ausiie malts. Aussie malt is used in a lot of Asian beers which copy the Germans and the pilsner taste is there as well, although not as pronounced.

I've got a few ideas - they are a bit radical but I would prefer others to chime in first.

Steve

Slightly off topic.....

Decoctions - if you can't see and taste the impact you aren't doing it properly.

What is occurring, as most of you will already know, are maillard reactions - that is, a chemical reaction between a sugar and an amino acid. It occurs in your toaster. You can see the malt darken significantly during a decoction. You can smell the change and you can taste the change.

To suggest this adds nothing suggests to me that the people doing it are either doing it wrong or can't taste the difference due to an undeveloped palate. Just because a celebrity homebrewer can't tell the difference does not end the discussion. I doubt they did a proper blind tasting (difference test, triangle test).

German pilsners, different kettle of fish. The flavour is completely different and tastes nothing like decocted malt. I've never made a german pilsner that tastes as good as commercial pilsners but a bo pils, yes. I don't decoct a german pils, I've tried but didn't like the result.

Great info from both labels and wessmith on the pH and temperature which i will play with during my next german pils.
 
What is occurring, as most of you will already know, are maillard reactions - that is, a chemical reaction between a sugar and an amino acid. It occurs in your toaster. You can see the malt darken significantly during a decoction. You can smell the change and you can taste the change.

To suggest this adds nothing suggests to me that the people doing it are either doing it wrong or can't taste the difference due to an undeveloped palate. Just because a celebrity homebrewer can't tell the difference does not end the discussion. I doubt they did a proper blind tasting (difference test, triangle test).

Great info from both labels and wessmith on the pH and temperature which i will play with during my next german pils.

The last desoction I did was on the beer that is not quite ready yet, the lager made with Weyy Boh Pils. Primary reason was missing my target temperature - a rare occurance for me. However, I thought I'd stretch it a bit while I am at it, taking about half of the thick mash and boiling quite vigorously for twenty minutes. Yes, it got a little darker and the smell changed from starchy/grainy to smelling like toasted muesli - very nice actually. What effect this has on the finished beer is a guess as the beer is not ready yet, 7 days to go.

Steve
 
I even have a sneaking suspicion that it's fermenting huge volumes.

What is the effect that this has on the finished beer? This is, by definition, one of the things that as homebrewers we cannot replicate. The consensus of this discussion now seems to be that other aspects of the process and ingredients are responsible, however if it were possible, it would presumably be beneficial to somehow emulate the effects of large volumes, to get closer to the commercial product.

One other factor may be the spunding the ferementer

Would this be a way to achieve this? Maybe ferment in a keg with a regulator set to release pressure at level found in the depths of huge commercial vessels?

I think I've read somewhere that fermenting at higher pressures also allows the temperature to be higher, presumably accelerating the process (which seems like the sort of thing a commercial brewery would be interested in). I can't cite a source and am happy to be corrected if I'm way off the mark there.
 
In-house malting (or proprietary malting). Another pretty big and overlooked factor here.

Maybe some of these beers are single malt - but that one base malt is processed to exact requirements...
 
Wessmith's experience has shone a different light on the subject, otherwise I'd agree completely with Manticle. Pilsner's in the motherland are completely different to what we get out here and what Nick is identifying as that super-malty sweetness with a caramel edge, is beer that is well past it's best. I also used to identify that taste with German Pilsner, having tasted from the source, I now know different.
 
Wess
I cant agree with this part, I regularly use 5% acid due to water composition and have found no added skew to my beers.
I specialise in lager and pils and have produced trophy beers with 5% Weyermann acidulated malt.
Nev

Hi Nev, 5% is way to high for a pils for me but the fact you get no flavour impact is probably due to the water profile you are using. Why do you need 5% acidulated malt? Basically to neutralise the calcium salts in your water and aid the buffering process on mashin. Surely you would be better off without those excess salts which must add something to the flavour profile of your beers. Do you agree?

Wes
 
Wessmith's experience has shone a different light on the subject, otherwise I'd agree completely with Manticle. Pilsner's in the motherland are completely different to what we get out here and what Nick is identifying as that super-malty sweetness with a caramel edge, is beer that is well past it's best. I also used to identify that taste with German Pilsner, having tasted from the source, I now know different.

I've drunken it in Germany too. German megaswills there taste just like they do here.

That grainy sweetness is not an age issue. It's not a "fault" :rolleyes:
 
Slightly off topic.....

Decoctions - if you can't see and taste the impact you aren't doing it properly.

What is occurring, as most of you will already know, are maillard reactions - that is, a chemical reaction between a sugar and an amino acid. It occurs in your toaster. You can see the malt darken significantly during a decoction. You can smell the change and you can taste the change.

To suggest this adds nothing suggests to me that the people doing it are either doing it wrong or can't taste the difference due to an undeveloped palate. Just because a celebrity homebrewer can't tell the difference does not end the discussion. I doubt they did a proper blind tasting (difference test, triangle test).

German pilsners, different kettle of fish. The flavour is completely different and tastes nothing like decocted malt. I've never made a german pilsner that tastes as good as commercial pilsners but a bo pils, yes. I don't decoct a german pils, I've tried but didn't like the result.

Great info from both labels and wessmith on the pH and temperature which i will play with during my next german pils.

Doc, have a look at the article on decoction by Charlie Bamforth in the current issue of Brewers Guardian - it makes a good read. www.brewers-guardian.com

Wes
 

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