Getting 'pilsner' Into Pilsner

[Muscovy_333]

What is the effect that this has on the finished beer? This is, by definition, one of the things that as homebrewers we cannot replicate. The consensus of this discussion now seems to be that other aspects of the process and ingredients are responsible, however if it were possible, it would presumably be beneficial to somehow emulate the effects of large volumes, to get closer to the commercial product.



Would this be a way to achieve this? Maybe ferment in a keg with a regulator set to release pressure at level found in the depths of huge commercial vessels?

I think I've read somewhere that fermenting at higher pressures also allows the temperature to be higher, presumably accelerating the process (which seems like the sort of thing a commercial brewery would be interested in). I can't cite a source and am happy to be corrected if I'm way off the mark there.

I have just built a fermenter with this cabability. Next brew will be my trial run. A couple of blokes on this forum use regulated fermenters for a range of reasons.
I will report when i have some evidence to support my theory

 

[dent]

I think I've read somewhere that fermenting at higher pressures also allows the temperature to be higher, presumably accelerating the process (which seems like the sort of thing a commercial brewery would be interested in). I can't cite a source and am happy to be corrected if I'm way off the mark there.

I have been doing this (14 degrees @ 18psi), it works well, but has no effect on the pilsneryness of the beer.

 

[Nick JD]

I have been doing this (14 degrees @ 18psi), it works well, but has no effect on the pilsneryness of the beer.

So that's about the bottom of a 20 foot fermenter?

 

[dent]

So that's about the bottom of a 20 foot fermenter?

I dunno, probably. The raised temperature is the important part as far as I am concerned. The lagers are finishing fast and clean.

 

[drsmurto]

Doc, have a look at the article on decoction by Charlie Bamforth in the current issue of Brewers Guardian - it makes a good read. www.brewers-guardian.com

Wes

Cheers for the link, however it does not address the chemical reaction between an amino acid and a sugar, molecules that are in abundance in the mash tun.

I've never argued decoctions are necessary from the point of view of mash techniques, simply on the basis of this one 'simple' chemical reaction that occurs which results in flavours you don't get without it. You can add melanoidin but I personally don't like the result so don't.

Toast tastes like toast and not microwaved bread due to the maillard reaction. The surface of a steak after frying. Dark crusted bread. None of these things would look, smell or taste the way they do if not for this simple chemical reaction.

When you boil the mash you get the same chemistry.

I do it because i love the flavour, nothing to do with adhering to any tradition, BJCP guideline or OCD.

But this is still OT as it is not the character you get in a german pilsner, that still eludes me so i cover it up with excessive levels of hallertau and tettnang

 

[mika]

So that's about the bottom of a 20 foot fermenter?

Given a 20ft fermenter (~6.096m) and a fluid density between 1000 kg/m3 (water) up to 1040 kg/m3, static pressure at the bottom of the fermenter would be 8.6 - 9 psi, decreasing proportionally to 0 at the top of the liquid level.

 

[Bizier]

Yeah there is something in the commercial German (not Czech) pilsners that has that grainy taste/aroma that I have no idea where it comes from. It actually stands out more in some of the cheaper brands. This is nothing to do with Czech style decoction derived melanoidins, or the flavours you get from using the (floor malted) bohemian pils malt either. I have never tasted this in any non-commerical beer, nor any from any pilsners from Australian craft breweries.

Anyone have any ideas?

Who know what malt they are using. They would probably be using their most economical local malt by the multiple silo full. I am pretty sure Weyermann only represents a small part of the German base malt spectrum.

I know decoction was mentioned, but you did not specify your mash regime. This is something the Germans are pretty specific about.

 

[Bizier]

Have you tried pasteurising your beer for the sake of an experiment to see if the flavours are generated through this process. I am not so familiar with the flavour you speak of but it seems a few of you concur on the fact that they have not tasted it in a homebrew or craft brewed beer...just a thought. Perhaps it is a process generated flavour.

Trust me, that is not it.

 

[labels]

It makes sense not to try too many things at once. I am going to concentrate on (1) water profile, (2) pH of mash especially during the sparge (3) high sparge temperature relying on the low pH to keep the astringency levels low.

The beer I have now which is nearly ready has had (1) a decoction mainly because I was way low with my mash-in water, 20 minute boil of thick mash to raise temp tp 63C (2) 2nd step mash using a HERMS coil to raise to 70C so both alpha and beta at about 30 minutes each, (3) Weyermann Boh pils malt (4) Wyeast 2001 yeast (5) RO water (6) tight pH control (7) tight temp control during fermentation. the beer will be at 6 weeks by the time I keg which is next weekend.

It would be good for AHB'ers to give feedback on their pilsners in this thread - or start a new one with what you have tried and what worked and what didn't since so many people are interested in making pilsners.

Steve

 

[Nick JD]

It makes sense not to try too many things at once. I am going to concentrate on (1) water profile, (2) pH of mash especially during the sparge (3) high sparge temperature relying on the low pH to keep the astringency levels low.

The beer I have now which is nearly ready has had (1) a decoction mainly because I was way low with my mash-in water, 20 minute boil of thick mash to raise temp tp 63C (2) 2nd step mash using a HERMS coil to raise to 70C so both alpha and beta at about 30 minutes each, (3) Weyermann Boh pils malt (4) Wyeast 2001 yeast (5) RO water (6) tight pH control (7) tight temp control during fermentation. the beer will be at 6 weeks by the time I keg which is next weekend.

It would be good for AHB'ers to give feedback on their pilsners in this thread - or start a new one with what you have tried and what worked and what didn't since so many people are interested in making pilsners.

Steve

There's a big difference between German Pilsner and Bohemian. The grain, hops and yeast are different. Steve, check out what makes a Czech Pilsner not be a German Pilsner.

 

[labels]

There's a big difference between German Pilsner and Bohemian. The grain, hops and yeast are different. Steve, check out what makes a Czech Pilsner not be a German Pilsner.

Yes, I know that. The beer under way at the moment is more skewed to a bohemian pils. Nevertheless, there are a lot of similarites. I've tried Wey pils and Wey premium pils malts and get great lagers but pilsners, they are not. This thread is about pilsners, mainly German pilsners as per my original post but not exclusively German. I mean, I've had great pils from Austria, Poland, Slovenia, Russia and a few other eastern European countries as well as Germany and the Czech Republic. So it's a pretty broad category. But remember you can make great lagers from ale malt and great ales from lager malt so I don't think the difference is really massive, very noticable but not worlds apart for lightly kilned base malts.

Steve

 

[the_new_darren]

Its funny. Prior to visiting Germany myself I expected that German Pilsener was going to be some god sent product that only the Germans (and other Europeans) would experience fresh.

However, once sampling numerous of these hallowed products I was unpleasently surprised to find that German pilsener tasted remarkably like any Australian megaswill.

And I agree, reproducing Australian megaswill (Euro-hopped lager) is extremely difficult on a HB scale!!!

Certainly it has alot to do with the water profile but just as importantly (perhaps more) it it is due to the tens-of-thousands of dollars spent on ensuring clonal specificity of the yeast?

If you buy a "smack pack" of yeast from X supplier, do you really think you have a propriety yeast?

All the data in the world about pressure, melanoidins, mashing profiles even water chemistry does not compesate for a strain of yeast that is highly protected and generally unavailable to the casual homebrewer.

tnd

 

[Renzo]

Actually your getting pretty close Steve. It is mostly method based but also a rigid adherence to some basic principles. It starts with the brewing liquor - it MUST be low in minerals, no bicarb hardness at all and have a pH factor around 7.0 or slightly less. Few municipal water supplies in Australia meet this criteria without treatment. The base malt is also critical in that it needs to have sufficient precursors to allow some melanoiden development in mashing and boiling. You dont need a decoction, in fact few if any German breweries still use this technique. Mash pH needs to be right on the button - usually 5.1 to 5.2. To achieve this will require some degree of mash acidulation - not after mashin, but calculated and implemented prior to mashin. Around 1% to 2% of acidulated malt is the recommended addition - any more than that can skew the flavour of the finished beer and in any event if you are not in the desired pH range then there are still problems with the brewing liquor calcium and/or bicarb content.

Sparging (fly sparging is the German norm) is also critical and generally should be around 85C with a pH no more than 6.5. The sparge water will probably need to be separately acidified to achieve that pH range. I use phosphoric acid to achieve this but again you cant "fix" high mineral water simply by adding an acid.

Here is a recipe that I used for competition pilsners back when I did those things. Water supply was from Robertson on the Jambaroo Mountain Road. There is a bottled water supplier who operates from a bore that taps into the main aquifer that eventually feeds down into Wollongong. The standing pH of that water is 6.8. That is very low because of the low mineral content and is ideal for the style. The same can be achieved by using a partial RO blend with most municipal supplies.

German pilsner malt (Weyermann, Bestmalz) 88 to 90%
German Carapils 8 to 10%
Acidulated malt 2%

Mash L/G ratio 3:1
Mashin @ 58 - 60C 15 mins (do not allow the mash to drop below 58C)
Raise to 65.5 to 66.5C till starch negative (usually around 20 mins)
Raise to 70C 15mins (check a sample of wort AND grist for starch negative)
Raise to mashout @ 78C for 10 mins

Sparge @ 85C

Boil 70mins and chill to 12 -15C and pitch yeast (I use 34/70 and ferment at 9C)

Its not that simple but is typically what the German brewers I have visited over the years use. And writing this reminds of the unfiltered pilsner that is on tap direct from the keg at the small brewery bar at Mahrs Brau in Bamberg. A standout!

Remember that a pilsner is the most subtle of styles.

Wes

Wes, Roughly how much phos acid p/litre did you use taking into account your water was ph6.8. I realise that everyones water is different but just a ballpark so I can try it without adding too much by adding a bit at a time while I measure. FYI I use 100% RO water and acid malt and CACL to get mash PH low but haven't even considered sparge with phos acid. BTW do most hb stores sell Phos acid?

 

[the_new_darren]

Get some pH strips. Cheap and effective.

Dont be tempted to buy a pH meter. Waste of money as you will only use it twice.

tnd

 

[Renzo]

Get some pH strips. Cheap and effective.

Dont be tempted to buy a pH meter. Waste of money as you will only use it twice.

tnd

I've got a handheld meter.

No big deal, just was looking for a rough %. I'll just add a bit to 1 litre and see what it does.

 

[Renzo]

The last desoction I did was on the beer that is not quite ready yet, the lager made with Weyy Boh Pils. Primary reason was missing my target temperature - a rare occurance for me. However, I thought I'd stretch it a bit while I am at it, taking about half of the thick mash and boiling quite vigorously for twenty minutes. Yes, it got a little darker and the smell changed from starchy/grainy to smelling like toasted muesli - very nice actually. What effect this has on the finished beer is a guess as the beer is not ready yet, 7 days to go.

Steve

So how did it go? By sparging at 85C (low PH) do you get that German pils graininess coming through? (as oppsoed to the decoction melanoiden taste)

 

[labels]

So how did it go? By sparging at 85C (low PH) do you get that German pils graininess coming through? (as oppsoed to the decoction melanoiden taste)

Alas I did not. The sparge water was very hot so I thought I would get huskiness coming through. Very clean lager but I rate it low. I am not doing this recipe again - 9.2kg Wey Boh pils, 0.5Kg Melanoidin, 0.3Kg Bairds med crystal for 50L. It is too heavy, too malty in a sweetish cloying way though not excessively., just not balanced.

Next will be 100% Boh pils with beta and alpha amylase rests. Boh pils malt is malty enough without anything added IMO.

Next W/E I will doing a straight up lager with BB Galaxy malt. I'v had such great success with this malt over the years and glad it's back on the shelves again after a hiatus. 8Kg Galaxy, 1Kg Wey Carapils, 1Kg Maris Otter - 50L batch. MO adds a great depth of flavour to a lager without bogging it down.

 

[dmcke109]

Hi Labels - been reading through this and I to love the taste of German pils! I have also devoted some time to replicating them. Whilst reading the posts I noticed that many concentrated on the grain bill (recipe), water and decoction (method) - all of which are obviously very important and must be right to produce any good beer style. What do you think about fermentation? A good German pils tastes crisp and dry. If the beer cannot attenuate enough the end result can be a little too sweet. I've been focussing recently on the grain bill (quality pils malt as mentioned in previous posts), moderate water hardness, low mash temp (64 degrees) and a low pitching temperature of 10 degrees Celsius with diacetyl rest and lagering for at least 4 weeks on the yeast cake prior to filtering and kegging. The big difference from previous brews Has been the use of pitching at a low temp and gradually letting it rise over a period of a few weeks. I know this all sounds pretty simple but I've been been pretty happy with the results of these pils since using this method. I'm not saying they are as good as a genuine German pils but they are pretty close - anyway that's my two cents.......good luck in your quest.

PS - I totally agree with dr smurto that decoction def makes a difference (once again my two cents )

 

[hockadays]

Wheres zwickle? I think all megaswill here tastes the same cause they brew high gravity and dilute and add hop oils at packaging. I diluted a beer i made recently that came out to big and when i did this it seemed to refine the flavour of the grain somewhat. I have also been chasing this flavour and aroma for some time and I have had hints of it with Wyeast munich larger 2308. It had the same aroma as when i stuck my nose in a stein of Spaten. Closest Ive come thus far. I also ferment under pressure and also spund to final carbonation and all this does is help keep your hop aroma from being scrubbed out by the CO2 produced through fermentation. Ive also tried the flaked barley as well with no great success. This chit malt I think could also be part of it or just the general specs of the base pilsner malt they are using over there. Just think that none of the beers brewed in Australia under licence have this flavour do they? becks brewed here doesnt have it..
Any thoughts?

 

[labels]

Hi Labels - been reading through this and I to love the taste of German pils! I have also devoted some time to replicating them. Whilst reading the posts I noticed that many concentrated on the grain bill (recipe), water and decoction (method) - all of which are obviously very important and must be right to produce any good beer style. What do you think about fermentation? A good German pils tastes crisp and dry. If the beer cannot attenuate enough the end result can be a little too sweet. I've been focussing recently on the grain bill (quality pils malt as mentioned in previous posts), moderate water hardness, low mash temp (64 degrees) and a low pitching temperature of 10 degrees Celsius with diacetyl rest and lagering for at least 4 weeks on the yeast cake prior to filtering and kegging. The big difference from previous brews Has been the use of pitching at a low temp and gradually letting it rise over a period of a few weeks. I know this all sounds pretty simple but I've been been pretty happy with the results of these pils since using this method. I'm not saying they are as good as a genuine German pils but they are pretty close - anyway that's my two cents.......good luck in your quest.

PS - I totally agree with dr smurto that decoction def makes a difference (once again my two cents )

I do pretty much what you do except I pitch warm and immediately put into a freezer at -2C. As the thermal mass warms up, the freezer is set at 9C with a 2C differential. I give up on decoctions, I seriously doubt any German beer you buy uses a decoction these days.
In short, you're saying tempertaure control is important at all steps and I agree.
I am more than happy with my lagers and so is everyone else that drinks them so I'll stick to my method.
The only thing I don't agree with you is hard water. Pilsner is made from soft water, although northen German beers like DAB use moderatley hard water which is probably what you're trying to copy.

Steve