Fly Sparge Water Temp Question

[Screwtop]

For those practitioners of Fly Sparging. My first attempt at fly sparging yesterday resulted in 80% efficiency a first of that efficiency level for me. Had made a simple sparge arm for my Keep Cool Tun and found it all very simple and non stressful, very slow and relaxed over 60 min at a slow in out rate.

The question is regarding my sparge water temp which was to be 78C. Had to heat the sparge water in my HLT to 84C as after the water travelled via the hose and sparge arm it exited the sparge arm at 79C. Then having fallen 20cm the sparge water cools additionally, measured the temp by catching sparge water at the surface of the mash water, the temp there was 69C.

So the question: Should the sparge water hit the mash at 78C or are these losses from HLT to mash acceptable. Efficiency would indicate that all is fine, but what is the theoretic mark.

PS: Have used two step protien rest, sacc rest and mash out and single step sacc rest with mash out and returned 68% to 70% efficiency. This was a single step mash, however this was the first 90min sacc rest, which may have increased efficiency and not the fly sparge. That remains for another test.

ED:Typo

 

[Duff]

The question is regarding my sparge water temp which was to be 78C. Had to heat the sparge water in my HLT to 84C as after the water travelled via the hose and sparge arm it exited the sparge arm at 79C. Then having fallen 20cm the sparge water cools additionally, measured the temp by catching sparge water at the surface of the mash water, the temp there was 69C.

So the question: Should the sparge water hit the mash at 78C or are these losses from HLT to mash acceptable. Efficiency would indicate that all is fine, but what is the theoretic mark.

G'day Screwtop,

I fly sparge and keep my HLT water between 85 - 90C. As you have noted, once it has traveled and hits the top of the 'mash' water, I get similar temps to what you have noted. Mine differs a little to where instead of maintaining an inch or two of water over the mash continuously, the water level almost reaches the top of the tun. I'll turn the sparge off, put a towel over it to keep the heat in and let it trickle away into the kettle.

Fly sparging lets you do other things throughout the day. And, you're not a real brewer unless you fly sparge

Cheers.

 

[Darren]

Screwtop,
Fly sparging does increase efficiency as it ensures you drain all your "first wort" runnings.
The downside is that your second runnings usually are not so clear unless you re-circulate well.
If your sparge water is a bit cool it is probably better than being to hot.

cheers

Darren

 

[Duff]

Screwtop,
Fly sparging does increase efficiency as it ensures you drain all your "first wort" runnings.
The downside is that your second runnings usually are not so clear unless you re-circulate well.
If your sparge water is a bit cool it is probably better than being to hot.

cheers

Darren

G'day Darren,

What do you mean by 'The downside is that your second runnings usually are not so clear unless you re-circulate well.'

My understanding is that with fly, or continuous, there are no set second runnings as it is continuous. You sparge until the gravity drops below 1.010 or you reach pre-boil volume.

Cheers.

 

[Darren]

Screwtop,
Fly sparging does increase efficiency as it ensures you drain all your "first wort" runnings.
The downside is that your second runnings usually are not so clear unless you re-circulate well.
If your sparge water is a bit cool it is probably better than being to hot.

cheers

Darren

G'day Darren,

What do you mean by 'The downside is that your second runnings usually are not so clear unless you re-circulate well.'

My understanding is that with fly, or continuous, there are no set second runnings as it is continuous. You sparge until the gravity drops below 1.010 or you reach pre-boil volume.

Cheers.

Sorry, my mistake. I always imagine fly sparging would be "on the fly" or quick.
Must be something else then. Did you use a different malt for this batch?

cheers

Darren

 

[Screwtop]

Thanks Duff, makes sense to me. Used the same amount of base malt as the previous three.

No Darren, no second runnings. Just recirc first runnings until very clear then back off mash tun outlet valve and adjust to as close to 1L in 2 Min as you can get then put dip stick in mash tun and adjust sparge water in to maintain level. Then go off and do somethingh else while sparging over about an hour. The water in the HLT runs out and the mash drains. This time I hit the pre boil vol in the kettle right on the nail.

I start with total water required less mash-out water in the HLT. Heat HLT to strike temp and then drop dough in volume to mash tun, keeping the element on in the HLT to heat the remaining (sparge vol) water to sparge temp. Boil the mash out water in a boiler pot, and add that at end of sacc rest for the 10 min mash out then start the lauter.

 

[Darren]

Thanks Duff, makes sense to me. Used the same amount of base malt as the previous three.

No Darren, no second runnings. Just recirc first runnings until very clear then back off mash tun outlet valve and adjust to as close to 1L in 2 Min as you can get then put dip stick in mash tun and adjust sparge water in to maintain level. Then go off and do somethingh else while sparging over about an hour. The water in the HLT runs out and the mash drains. This time I hit the pre boil vol in the kettle right on the nail.

I start with total water required less mash-out water in the HLT. Heat HLT to strike temp and then drop dough in volume to mash tun, keeping the element on in the HLT to heat the remaining (sparge vol) water to sparge temp. Boil the mash out water in a boiler pot, and add that at end of sacc rest for the 10 min mash out then start the lauter.

Screwtop, how do you weigh your grain?

cheers

Darren

 

[Screwtop]

Electronic kitchen scales 1Kg at a time Darren. Why :blink:

 

[T.D.]

Its interesting to hear what other people do with their sparge water temp. I have always been aware that you lose a fair bit of heat on the way from the hlt to the mash tun, but I must confess I have never given it too much thought. I always let my sparge water (in the hlt) fluctuate somewhere between 75 and 80 degrees. So that probably means its probably mid 60s at the highest when its sitting on the grain bed. No leaching tannins for me! :lol: Anyway, is there a reason why I should be worried about this? I get around 80% efficiency (with JW malt) too. I'm more than happy to keep going the way I am, but just thought I'd check to see if I should be paying this issue more attention than I am at the moment...

Cheers :beer:

 

[Darren]

Electronic kitchen scales 1Kg at a time Darren. Why :blink:

Why? Because it would be very easy to add 5% extra grain to a beer and claim increased efficiency. Thats why.
Could also be due to the extended mash times.


cheers

Darren

Its interesting to hear what other people do with their sparge water temp. I have always been aware that you lose a fair bit of heat on the way from the hlt to the mash tun, but I must confess I have never given it too much thought. I always let my sparge water (in the hlt) fluctuate somewhere between 75 and 80 degrees. So that probably means its probably mid 60s at the highest when its sitting on the grain bed. No leaching tannins for me! :lol: Anyway, is there a reason why I should be worried about this? I get around 80% efficiency (with JW malt) too. I'm more than happy to keep going the way I am, but just thought I'd check to see if I should be paying this issue more attention than I am at the moment...

Cheers :beer:

Cooler is better TD at least on the home brew scale. You could probably sparge with ambient temp water and lose 5% if you were happy with that.
The best beers are probably made with NO SPARGE.

cheers

Darren

 

[Screwtop]

Darren, I use the same scales for every batch, none are perfect but using the same scales each time to weigh around the same weight should result in a similar error margin. So I don't believe this has anything to do with the increase in efficiency.

Some calcs indicate that a 10% error at 4.5Kg would amount to an effect of 5 gravity points in 23L of wort. A change of 5 gravity points in potential extract rate relates to a 7% change in brewhouse efficiency. So scales would have to be out by at least 15% to effect a 10% plus change in overall efficiency.

This has ended up off topic but, I do plan to carry out a controlled test to identify the source of the increase in efficiency. ie: fly sparge or 90 min sacc rest.

 

[razz]

G'day screwtop. Iv'e always had my sparge water at 78-80 degrees and maintained that temp through the grain bed. I do keep the mash tun lid on while spargeing, my sparge manifold sits at the top of the grain so the water doesn't drop in like yours and lose heat.

 

[Screwtop]

Just what I was looking for Razz, will remake the sparge arm so it fits inside the tun, water cools quickly falling ftom the top of the tun to whatever level the mash water is at. That should help. Got any pics of what you are using as a sparger/sparge arm/sprinkler.

 

[dicko]

Darren, I use the same scales for every batch, none are perfect but using the same scales each time to weigh around the same weight should result in a similar error margin. So I don't believe this has anything to do with the increase in efficiency.

Some calcs indicate that a 10% error at 4.5Kg would amount to an effect of 5 gravity points in 23L of wort. A change of 5 gravity points in potential extract rate relates to a 7% change in brewhouse efficiency. So scales would have to be out by at least 15% to effect a 10% plus change in overall efficiency.

This has ended up off topic but, I do plan to carry out a controlled test to identify the source of the increase in efficiency. ie: fly sparge or 90 min sacc rest.

Hi Screwtop,
I tend to agree that your revised method is more than likely the cause of your increased efficiency.
If I may tell my story, I used to batch sparge and get an efficiency of around 70%. with a mash of 60 mins
I then changed my methods to mash for 90 mins and mash out by infusion with hot water to raise the temp of the mash to 76 deg c (promash/beersmith etc should give you the calks).
I then clear the wort and fly sparge the remaining water at 76 to 78 deg c at a rate of one litre per minute.
This has improved my efficiency to a very predictable 78% with every mash.
The other variable that I had noticed which increased my efficiency was when I varied the speed of my old grain mill ( Marga) it caused me to have a higher efficiency if I turned it faster.
Unless you have changed mills or if you are buying pre crushed from different suppliers I would be running with your suggested theory.
Cheers