Floating Mashes

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PostModern

Iron Wolf Brewery
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I've been recently introduced to this method of mashing not often seen in home breweries. Well, I heard about it when I started mashing, but like most of us here, crushed fine and used the grain bed as a filter for the floury part of the crush. I've been posting bits and pieces about floating mashes all over the place, but think a dedicated thread is the best place to put this, so questions can be asked and information consolidated.

The following is blatantly pinched from ///'s posts in the IBU forum and from his instruction and advice to me, credit goes to Scotty and his Master for all of this. From my reading, this is a method employed in many if not most British breweries, and probably quite a few ale houses in Aus as well.

Essentially, a floating mash is what is sounds like. It is the method of mashing where the grain bed floats in the hot liquor rather than forming a dense porrige.

How?

* coarse crush - going thru the malting process, air bubbles form in the matix and between the husk layers. A coarse crush keeps these intact. A fine crush destroys the air bubbles in the malt which will help float the kernels;

* gentle mash-in - as the barley is coarse milled, the mixing in of the grist is easy with no dough balls forming; and

* slow run off - when you begin the run off this should be done slowly - no more than 30-40% of the first worts in the first hour. This serves to keep the bed afloat, stoping it from compressing. The grist acts as the filter (not the mash plate) and aids in clear, brite worts. (I run off a little quicker than this, but compensate letting the sparge water a little quicker as well, but still, quite slow).

Why?

* Bright Wort - nothing but a couple floaties in the first runnings.

* Efficient conversion - the enzymes in the grain are where you'd expect them to be, near the starchy stuff in the protein matrix. By keeping the crush coarse, you let the water into the air gaps that are present in the grain letting efficient conversion occur.

* Slow lauter gives, in ///'s words, "less shear forces on the first worts and less dissolution of lipids and oxidative precursors into the wort from the grain husk compared to 'turbid' worts."

It seems to go against everything we've ever learnt about fine crush for maximum conversion, but it is just a different method to achieve the same thing. Obviously there are some costs and benefits to both methods, but this method has served me well, indeed on my first mash with Marris Otter, I decided to give this floating mash thing a go. My enthusiasm gushed into this post.

Anyway, it works, works well and makes for a great brew day. Seeing the malt rise in the tun rather than water over the grain bed is a fascinating and at first slightly spooky sight.
 
Hey PoMo,

Is this simply underletting you speak of??

cheers\

Darren
 
I'd say MO definitely is meant for that, the floating mash is a UK thing, right? Good for well-modified malts where a coarse or fine grind does not result in a big difference in efficiency. I'm sure it'd work well with most of the pils malt we get too but i'd be interested to hear how it works out with something like weyermann bo pils or something else that's purported to be less modified.
 
Hey PoMo,

Is this simply underletting you speak of??

cheers\

Darren

No. I don't underlet, I toss the malt into the hot water. The keys are the coarse crush, gentle dough-in and a slow sparge. Liquor to grist ratio of 2.5:1 or so is also desirable. I've seen underletting with a fine crush and you get a thick, sticky mash like any other.


I'd say MO definitely is meant for that, the floating mash is a UK thing, right? Good for well-modified malts where a coarse or fine grind does not result in a big difference in efficiency. I'm sure it'd work well with most of the pils malt we get too but i'd be interested to hear how it works out with something like weyermann bo pils or something else that's purported to be less modified.

I think you're right Kai. I've tried it with IMC and JW Trad ale and had varying, tho mostly OK results. Failed with IMC Pilsner malt, but it could have been my crush. Lower modified malts need step or decoction mashing to get full conversion anyway. It wasn't until I recently used MO that I saw how great this method is. I'm going to give an Aussie malt another bash next brew with a coarse crush and see how it goes.
 
Po Mo ,

This is a interesting concept which you must have tested to be so happy with

1)do you recirculate the mash

2)are you fly sparging or batch sparging

3) is the efficienct compramised ?

pumpy :)
 
Po Mo ,

This is a interesting concept which you must have tested to be so happy with

1)do you recirculate the mash

2)are you fly sparging or batch sparging

3) is the efficienct compramised ?

pumpy :)

1: No need. The runoff is clear from the get-go.
2. Fly, of course, otherwise the bed collapses on the tun floor.
3. Bucket measuring system, so no hard data.
 
I was also thinking this, so you can dump your hot liquor on top, gently dough in (which i take to mean a relatively gentle stir) and the mash stays afloat?

How much coarser are we talking? Like I've seen people talking about their mill settings for us non floaters at around 0.9mm give or take...
 
What is a gentle dough-in?

cheers

Darren

Sprinkle the malt on the surface of the water and stir only enough to wet/submerge the malt. Don't mix it like a cake mix. Dough balls don't form, so there's no need to paddle it all over the place. Stirring too much displaces all the air leading to the malt sinking.

I was also thinking this, so you can dump your hot liquor on top, gently dough in (which i take to mean a relatively gentle stir) and the mash stays afloat?

How much coarser are we talking? Like I've seen people talking about their mill settings for us non floaters at around 0.9mm give or take...

I don't know the setting. I just align the mill to the white mark on the adjustment knob on Scotty's village bike of a mill. Looks to me about 2mm... Perhaps Scotty will chime in with facts and figures.
 
I think you're right Kai. I've tried it with IMC and JW Trad ale and had varying, tho mostly OK results. Failed with IMC Pilsner malt, but it could have been my crush. Lower modified malts need step or decoction mashing to get full conversion anyway. It wasn't until I recently used MO that I saw how great this method is. I'm going to give an Aussie malt another bash next brew with a coarse crush and see how it goes.

Cheers pomo, sounds like we're on the same page. Just wanted to add that the difference in extract between coarse and fine crush is an indicator of the degree of conversion even when a step/decoction isn't necessarily required... just trying to pretend i learnt something while studying the last couple months :)
 
Pardon my ignorance,

Wont this method end up with a large prportion of unconverted starch in the mash (protected from conversion by the course crush)?

cheers

darren
 
Inspired by a step mash thread

I recall mashing a pilsner in a rectangular esky with braid, only my second AG for that matter.
I added only enough water (1.5:1) ratio to wet the mash for protein rest then poured the remaining water in for the saccharification rest.
When I added the remaining water in for the mash-out the water ratio was above 4:1.
I was batch sparging with a floating mash and had great initial run off but a stuck sparge in the second run off as the some grains managed to get in to the braid.
(I mashed ~5 kgs and got +1.050 Og after boil for 19 Litres
I topped up and added DME to 23 litres) for and OG of ~1.045

I never did work out the efficiency.

My understanding is if one desire a highly dextrinious wort the mash need to be fairly thick initially then diluted later.
If you have a floating mash at an early stage the enzymatic activity differ somewhat.
Thirstyboy had a post some where on this....
 
That would depend on how coarse (and modification!), after all (almost) none of us crush our grain to flour.
 
That would depend on how coarse (and modification!), after all (almost) none of us crush our grain to flour.


Kai,

The crush described in this thread (husk filled with air) sounds as if it would very likely result in DRY unconverted starch.

Still unsure as to the benefit? My run-offs are clear, no doughballs and have only had 2 stuck sparges out of a couple of hundred. I am a fine crusher/underletter.

cheers

Darren
 
Pardon my ignorance,

Wont this method end up with a large prportion of unconverted starch in the mash (protected from conversion by the course crush)?

cheers

darren

Your ignorance is unpardonable ;)

From: Institute of Brewing and Distilling study guide exam 1 "AME":

[paraphrase]
Along with the air in the husk-testa interface, the starches and small air-filled "water-free" spaces in the endosperm in a good "mealy" kernel are entrapped in the protein matrix. That means two things:

1. The air-filled spaces allow easy water ingress into the matrix and an even pattern of hydration and hence better modification of the endosperm
2. A coarse milled grain without destroying the matrix allows the grain to float.
[/paraphrase]


If you have "steely" malt, rather than "mealy", then yes, you would be right. As Kai has mentioned, the method works best with well modified malts. They, by the very nature of their malting, have air gaps within the endosperm. A coarse crack doesn't leave the endosperm pristine, it introduces fissures through which the mash water may enter the kernel. Water enters. The enzymes are in close proximity to starch > brilliant conversion. Slow sparge gets all the resultant fermentatbles out of the husk.
 
Kai,

The crush described in this thread (husk filled with air) sounds as if it would very likely result in DRY unconverted starch.

Still unsure as to the benefit? My run-offs are clear, no doughballs and have only had 2 stuck sparges out of a couple of hundred. I am a fine crusher/underletter.

cheers

Darren

I am too, works great for me every time apart from when my manifold fell out last brew. The husk filled with air doesn't mean the particles from the endosperm aren't saturated though.
 
Kai,

The crush described in this thread (husk filled with air) sounds as if it would very likely result in DRY unconverted starch.

Still unsure as to the benefit? My run-offs are clear, no doughballs and have only had 2 stuck sparges out of a couple of hundred. I am a fine crusher/underletter.

cheers

Darren

A fine crush can lead to a really firm grain bed. This can trap fermentables during run-off. Channelling is an enemy. In a loose floating mash, runoff is unrestricted, hence more fermentables are retrieved to the kettle.
 
Hey PoMo,

Seems like quite a highly contestable point. If it so effective why crush at all?

How slow is a slow sparge? and is slow worth the extra effort at the HB level??

Extraction of the sugars from the husk would obviously be lower than that acheived with a fine crush at whatever sparge speed surely??

Doubting Darren 8)

EDIT: Your above point. Thin mash will acheive minimise channeling and will be readily fermentable
 
Hey PoMo,

Seems like quite a highly contestable point. If it so effective why crush at all?

Geez daz, that's a lousy point. pomo's crushing to his satisfaction same as we do. How are the hammer mill and mash filter treating you and your flour crush these days?
 
Before delving more into the theory and science of it, I'd just like to know realistically, what efficiency improvement could be expected using this method? It sounds like its a slightly more delicate process, and definitely more time-consuming when compared with batch sparging. I understand the logic, but interested to know the bang for buck of this method in terms of some actual figures. Are we talking about achieving 95% efficiencies here?

Interesting, very interesting!
 
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