Flame Out Hop Additions Or Hop Tea For Nochill Method

[clean brewer]

CB do you actually leave the hops in the cube ?

Yes I do...

I keep forgetting to take a temp reading of the wort after whirlpooling and letting sit for 20min before I drain into cube just to see what temp the wort is just before draining into the cube.... I read that Hops really stop doing much at about 80 degrees? :unsure:

:icon_cheers: CB

 

[jlm]

I have done a few experiments on this, both sensory and measuring IBUs in the lab; and my results suggest that adding Pellet hops loose into a cube (racked after whirlpool approx 90-95C) gives you a bitter quotient equivalent to adding the same amount of hops at 20-25 minutes from the end of the boil. Put em in a hop bag or tea ball, use flower hops or both... its going to be less, maybe significantly less. If you use a lot of IBUs worth of cube hops.. I suspect the utilization will also drop off. I have and know that others have tried; an all cube hop beer - calculated at 25mins equivalent... and the beer was under bitter. So if you were going to try that (it gives amazing flavour and aroma...) I would be thinking more along the lines of equal to 15mins in the boil.

Very informative stuff TB. Have been leading myself to this conclusion lately. Have brewed a few lightly bittered hoppy summer ale type things recently and have found them way too bitter. Latest was a stab at a Stone and Wood type deal and after digging up a thread where some one (Maxt?) pointed out a 0 min addition with a high AA hop like galaxy will leave you with a very bitter beer. I FWH with 5g, had a 5 min addition of about 15g and cube hopped when it reached around 80 deg C on the outside of the cube and while it has a lovely aroma, is still pehaps a touch too bitter (although this is straight from the fermenter, when chilled and carbed I'm hoping it may be muted a little bit. :unsure: . To me anyway.

 

[kabooby]

I add flame out additions for most of my beers that require a hop aroma. If I want to increase the hop aroma than I will dry hop in the fermenter about 4 days into fermentation. This adds a different type of aroma but compliments a flame out addition.

I dont think this chart is that accurate. IMO the flavour and aroma of hops are closly related. You can get hop aroma @30min and hop flavour @10min. Use it as a rough guide for hop utilisation maybe.

Kabooby

 

[glaab]

I thought I'd check that chart against beersmith, this is the plot with a single hop addition [50g Simcoe not that I expect it matters]. I though some of you might be interested to see it, sorry about hijack Pumpy.

 

[raven19]

This thread should be airlocked with the golden info contained in here from TB and others.

Thanks for expanding on that.

 

[Nick JD]

What is flavour?

What is aroma?

The tongue can "taste" five things. The nose, hundreds.

When drinking beer, the tongue picks up the hop bitterness and the malt sweetness (and perhaps a tiny amount of hop sour) ... every thing else is aroma.

Everything.

That graph is nonsense.

 

[glaab]

What is flavour?

What is aroma?

The tongue can "taste" five things. The nose, hundreds.

When drinking beer, the tongue picks up the hop bitterness and the malt sweetness (and perhaps a tiny amount of hop sour) ... every thing else is aroma.

Everything.

That graph is nonsense.

Thanks for your "input". You have no idea how much I value your opinion.

 

[Hutch]

What is flavour?

What is aroma?

The tongue can "taste" five things. The nose, hundreds.

When drinking beer, the tongue picks up the hop bitterness and the malt sweetness (and perhaps a tiny amount of hop sour) ... every thing else is aroma.

Everything.

That graph is nonsense.

Very naive and pointless contribution to this discussion mate!
Hop sour. WTF?

 

[Fourstar]

Mods, Delete posts 26 and those assoicated!

 

[Thirsty Boy]

instead of evil... h34r:

Or so it seems -- mwah hah ha ha haaaaa (check the blurb under my avatar)


There are two parts to the bittering in the cube argument.... there have been quite a few threads about it and a bit of a search will lead to many posts (a lot of them by me.. I have a bug up my bum about it - so I dont mind having another shot here )

There is - Add some actual hops into the cube.

I don't think anyone is arguing seriously that this won't add a chunk of bitterness. Any debate is around how much bitterness it adds - and whether the flavour/aroma it adds is worth the bother. I think we have the "boiling equivalent" reasonably bracketed... I reckon 20-25 mins for loose pellet hops... I think the lowest guestimate I have heard is about 10. So really, you are only a brew or three away from sorting it out for yourself by experimentation.

There is also Will late additions continue to isomerise in te cube, adding bitterness?

Now this one is far from sorted.

I reckon yes. My reasoning is that the alpha acids dissolve in the hot wort fairly quickly (if you use pellets) and that those alpha acids go into the cube regardless of whether the hops themselves do. So with a flame out addition, a goodly chunk of the alpha acids will actually dissolve into the wort, go into the cube, partially isomerise and add bitterness.

This tends to support the "my No-chilled beers are often over bitter" question that is frequently asked -- but doesn't explain the people who don't notice an increase.

I have mucked about with my brewing results (no lab tests yet) pro-mash and a calculator... and I reckon that you are likely to get a bitterness contribution from any hop addition in a no chilled beer, equal to 10-15 minutes extra boiling. So your 30minute hops.. are like 40min hops, you 60mins are like 70 and you flame out hops are like 10 minute hops. This sort of explains why it sometimes seems to happen, and sometimes doesn't.

Consider... an english bitter. Moderate hop additions of low alpha hops. Probably mostly all done in a 60 minute boil anyway.. so a little extra on the bittering addition is going to only add an ibu or two... and a flame out addition of say a 4% fuggles or something similar... only another IBU or two. Add really, our palates are struggling to pick up a bitterness diffference under 5 or so IBUs. So.... "what are you talking about, no-chill doesn't make a difference to bitterness".

Same thing on a 30IBU APA... ignoring the bittering addition, it might make a difference but we dont need it for this argument. Take a 20min 5min addition of simcoe at 13% - pro mash (rager) says that will add 12IBU... change that 5 min addition to a 15min addition (add 10 mins) and suddenly we are talking 19IBus, enough to notice, at the upper end of the scale assuming 15mins extra... it adds 24IBU or double the original. Imagine if you had a 30min flavour addition in there as well?

So - do late additions add bitterness?? Answer, maybe - depending on the beer, depending on the hops etc etc. I think if you assume all your additions will behave as though they were boiled for 10 mins longer than they actually were... you will be close to the mark.

BUT .... other good and knowledgeable brewers think I have it all wrong and the effect is much less, or not there at all. So at the end of the day you need to decide if you see a difference. If you do, hopefully all this typing will give you a framework for how you might start to work out how to compensate. If not, well, I'm all wrong and you can safely ignore me.

Hop additions are tricky... people have been shoving hops in beer for centuries. And even with normal additions they cant agree on how they will behave. Thats why there are three formula for bittering in promash... I dont know how many in Beersmith and the other brewing software. And none of them agree on how many IBUs a simple 60min addition will add. If we can even get close with the no-chill stuff. We are doing allright.

Besides... take no notice of me. I am evil remember :lol:

TB

 

[MarkBastard]

Thirsty Boy, does that mean if I use a conical stainless steel hop sock when boiling, and I add my bittering addition, and want to empty out the spent hops before adding in my flavour addition, that oils will already be dissolved so I won't be wasting the hops by taking them out mid boil?

Does that make sense?

I always wondered because I sort of run out of room haha.

 

[Pumpy]

This thread should be airlocked with the golden info contained in here from TB and others.

Thanks for expanding on that.

Your right raven19 there are some great contributions ,I am going to print this one off

You get more off the forum than you can read in a book , TB may have written a book he is so prolific


pumpy

 

[Darren]

TB, Seing how you have results about hop levels following "cube" additions, perhaps you could get some results concerning dissolved plasticisers in hot wort as well? I believe you mentioned you could taste then in previous posts?

If plasticisers are not a problem, perhaps you could get CUB to chuck their stainless boilers and coils and move to a whole plastic set-up? Would be a whole lot cheaper for them and would of course be perfectly safe h34r:

cheers

Darren

 

[Barley Belly]

It's always refreshing to hear some constructive criticism :huh:

 

[AntCoop]

man... what is your issue with your cryptic trolling posts? this is a very informative thread with knowledge from guys that have no chilled and trying to achieve a goal of making the best beer they can...your post has no input whatsoever. Who gives a rats about CUB and changing to plastic?....rant off


EDIT : mods please remove this dribble trolling this thread had very good feedback from brewers giving information to fellow brewers regarding no chilling

 

[Bribie G]

TB, Seing how you have results about hop levels following "cube" additions, perhaps you could get some results concerning dissolved plasticisers in hot wort as well? I believe you mentioned you could taste then in previous posts?

If plasticisers are not a problem, perhaps you could get CUB to chuck their stainless boilers and coils and move to a whole plastic set-up? Would be a whole lot cheaper for them and would of course be perfectly safe h34r:

cheers

Darren

I find that the plasticers from my no chill cube are masked by the chemicals leaking out of my BIAB bag so I don't generally notice them, especially when they get mixed well with the plasticisers from my fermenter and PET bottles. :icon_cheers:

 

[Darren]

You boil your beer before bottling Bribie or just a committed plastic guy?

Make no mistake, leaving hot wort in plastic containers has the potential for causing additional health problems over and above those from drinking the alcohol contained in the beer itself. But, I only guess that time will tell

cheers

darren

 

[jlm]

So - do late additions add bitterness?? Answer, maybe - depending on the beer, depending on the hops etc etc. I think if you assume all your additions will behave as though they were boiled for 10 mins longer than they actually were... you will be close to the mark.

After tasting the beer I posted about earlier, that I gave a good deal of thought about with regard to NC late hopping bitterness ( I just trade marked that term and demand royalties.), I agree... but,


Hop additions are tricky... people have been shoving hops in beer for centuries. And even with normal additions they cant agree on how they will behave. Thats why there are three formula for bittering in promash... I dont know how many in Beersmith and the other brewing software. And none of them agree on how many IBUs a simple 60min addition will add. If we can even get close with the no-chill stuff. We are doing allright.

There is always the "your setup, your process" arguement to be taken into account too. That ******* ensures there is no solid answer for everyone. Just have to brew a lot to get the desired result really.



TB

Ooohhh, my really insightful comments turned up in TB's (quoted) post. 31Yrs old and still haven't mastered the internet. Can't be assed trying to change it.

 

[raven19]

Your right raven19 there are some great contributions ,I am going to print this one off

You get more off the forum than you can read in a book , TB may have written a book he is so prolific


pumpy

+1 its saved in my favourites too!

 

[Thirsty Boy]

TB, Seing how you have results about hop levels following "cube" additions, perhaps you could get some results concerning dissolved plasticisers in hot wort as well? I believe you mentioned you could taste then in previous posts?

If plasticisers are not a problem, perhaps you could get CUB to chuck their stainless boilers and coils and move to a whole plastic set-up? Would be a whole lot cheaper for them and would of course be perfectly safe h34r:

cheers

Darren

If you can show me how that is relevant to this discussion of hop bitterness for people who have already decided that they are happy to use no-chill... then you have something useful to contribute here. If not... then you are simply making a straight anti no-chill argument and perhaps you could re-post that in the relevant thread?

BTW - I assume you have alerted the relevant authorities to what you must consider to be a significant public health issue.... what with all those retailers selling fresh wort kits that are after all just commercial no-chills?

It would of course be your reasonable civic duty, as a respected scientist, to point out to the authorities that you have identified a commercial practice that in your considered opinion represents a real danger to the consumers of the products in question - and being the public spirited person you so obviously are, you have of course acted. So naturally I will keep an eye on the homebrew shops, and when fresh wort kits start to be withdrawn from sale due to the health risks they pose (righteously pointed out to the health department by yourself). I will immediately stop no-chilling and write you a truly contrite public apology for having doubted the wisdom of your advice.

Unless of course you haven't reported this issue.... in which case you are either less than confident that you are right, a coward; or are indeed the rampant trolling twat that you are sometimes accused of being.

Lets wait and see which it is hmmmm