Filtered Beer V's Non Filtered In Comps

[kevnlis]

Sounds like someone wants to sell more beer filters h34r:

 

[reVoxAHB]

I mean, I could take a bottle each of kolsch and English Bitter, both as muddy as hell, filter them, carefully blend them, add some liquid cascade hops and enter it as the "perfect" APA.

Well, I would think the use of German nobles (Hallertau, Tettnang, Spalt or Hersbrucker) in the kolsch alone would come through in yer "perfect" APA, and be scored appropriately. That is to say, scored down as not to style for APA.

A 50 point BJCP Scoresheet puts Appearance at only a potential score / out of 3. This includes perception of colour, clarity, head (including retention, colour and texture). That means, you've got 47 other points to make up... granted, a filtered beer might add to a judges overall impression, if bright to style but yer not gonna win a comp just because you've filtered a beer bright.

It doesn't make sense to me to have judges scoring for/or against filtration... eg entry checked box for filtered, it's a kolsch and cloudy so marked down. I would think a cloudy kolsch would be marked down in apprearance (or not as high as a bright kolsch) irregardless of filtration. Marking an entry down even further, just becuase it's been filtered, doesn't make sense. It's either appropriate to style in appearance (and presumably attractive), or it's not.

reVox

 

[Stuster]

Well, I would think the use of German nobles (Hallertau, Tettnang, Spalt or Hersbrucker) in the kolsch alone would come through in yer "perfect" APA, and be scored appropriately. That is to say, scored down as not to style for APA.

Ah, no, you can use any American hops in an APA. Since those include varieties derived from German and UK hops I think you'd be hard pressed to say any hop variety was wrong for an APA. If you can use Liberty or Mount Hood, why not Hallertau or Spalt?

Anyway, I think you make good points. And so does T.D. (even though I'm disappointed that his technique was a fake. ) I'm not really for filtering in my own beer either, but heck if people want to filter and feel it makes a better beer for them then that's great.

GB, if it's a style which calls for clear beers, it should get marked down if the beer is hazy, filtered or not. Sounds like it might be the solution might not be anything to do with filtering/not but just that the entries should be more specific about what style it is.

 

[matti]

Why differentiate?
Clarity is clarity, and is either desired for the style or not.
The method used to achieve that clarity should be irrelevant.
You lose points if the beer should be clear and isn't.
If you go to the effort to achieve that, and do, then you get the points.

I fully agree with BC comment on the 1st post.

The ultimate winner are the BEST beers that are closest to style.

You could if you choose have two classes of each but then the judging would take twice as long and the entry cost of these competition would go up the Richter-scale and I woul;d lose interest pretty quickly.

Beer is beer.
Some good, some better and some brilliant :lol:

 

[T.D.]

Well, I would think the use of German nobles (Hallertau, Tettnang, Spalt or Hersbrucker) in the kolsch alone would come through in yer "perfect" APA, and be scored appropriately. That is to say, scored down as not to style for APA.

With the amount of American hops I generally use in an APA I highly doubt you'd detect any whimpy nobles coming through! :lol:

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I'm sure I'll offend the filtering brigade out there but I really think that filtering is an artificial part of brewing. Its akin to blending 5 different beers and taking home 1st prize in a comp. Technically nothing wrong with it, but would you really feel like you'd produced the best beer? I mean, I could take a bottle each of kolsch and English Bitter, both as muddy as hell, filter them, carefully blend them, add some liquid cascade hops and enter it as the "perfect" APA. Would anybody here feel good about winning a gold medal with such a beer? How would you feel if you had produced a near perfect unfiltered APA brewed from scratch, only to be pipped at the post by a reverse-engineered beer that started off as a pretty poor effort? I wouldn't be too happy. To me this is not what home brewing is about.

But thats exactly what winemakers do - and whiskey makers - and brandy makers - and its all considered to be part of the art. I also think that that the makers of things like Rodenbach and most of the lambics and traditional old ales and Newcastle Brown, might not be all that happy that you have just used their standard techniques as an example of invalid brewing practice.

Mind you, from my point of view, I don't think that you can actually do what you are suggesting. I mean this bit ". . . pipped at the post by a reverse-engineered beer that started off as a pretty poor effort?. . . " IMHO - you just couldn't do it. If the beer was bad from the start, then its never going to be good no matter how you blend it. All thats going to happen is that you might blend a good beer with a bad beer and end up with twice as much average beer.

If its done on purpose though.... I make a keg of underhopped Bitter, there's nothing wrong with it, just not bitter enough, so I make another keg of bitter and I deliberately make it extra bitter. Blend the two and now I have two kegs of good beer. I see that as just smart brewing, not cheating.

But to each his own - everyone brews for their own reasons & I'm not knocking yours.

In a competition though, surely the object of the game is to end up with a glass of great beer - I cant see why the "how" should really have anything much to do with it

Thirsty

 

[kevnlis]

One of my favourite styles (Porter) would not exist but for the blending of beers. It was of course done for cost reasons in the old days, but surly was continued for the reason of taste...

 

[Adamt]

I'd always though that the "filtered" checkbox was mainly for the stewards serving the beer, as a reminder that if it isn't filtered to be careful when reaching the end of the bottle.

 

[Kai]

I'd always though that the "filtered" checkbox was mainly for the stewards serving the beer, as a reminder that if it isn't filtered to be careful when reaching the end of the bottle.

Ditto that.

While I'm here I'll jump back on my soapbox and say again that it should be all and only about the beer in front of you. I don't care if it's filtered, fined, blended, kit, grain, commercial, produced on a blinged-out system or brewed in a bucket. If the brewer has produced it themselves and deemed it suitable for entry into a particular class then that's all that matters to me.

 

[Darren]

A 50 point BJCP Scoresheet puts Appearance at only a potential score / out of 3. This includes perception of colour, clarity, head (including retention, colour and texture). That means, you've got 47 other points to make up... granted, a filtered beer might add to a judges overall impression, if bright to style but yer not gonna win a comp just because you've filtered a beer bright.

reVox

Hey Revox,
In a class where "bright" is "important" you can almost be assured that a bright beer wins. So yes, you will win with a beer that is great in every other respect AND is bright.

In actual fact, a kit beer will fare well in a comp mainly because of its clarity (overall impression)

cheers

Darren

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Ditto that.

While I'm here I'll jump back on my soapbox and say again that it should be all and only about the beer in front of you. I don't care if it's filtered, fined, blended, kit, grain, commercial, produced on a blinged-out system or brewed in a bucket. If the brewer has produced it themselves and deemed it suitable for entry into a particular class then that's all that matters to me.

Hi Kai Did you enter ? If so did you nominate a BJCP Style guideline ? 90% of enteries didnt. I agree Its is all about the beer in front of you but you need to know what in the Glass to judge objectively. Doesn't matter how you brewed the beer and we didn't want to know that anyway. I think the judges were being kind to bottle conditioned entries by not penalising for cloudy beers but it does need to be resolved for next year so we all, both judges and brewers know were they stand
GB

 

[Ross]

Ditto that.

While I'm here I'll jump back on my soapbox and say again that it should be all and only about the beer in front of you. I don't care if it's filtered, fined, blended, kit, grain, commercial, produced on a blinged-out system or brewed in a bucket. If the brewer has produced it themselves and deemed it suitable for entry into a particular class then that's all that matters to me.

+1

GB, I'm amazed any comp has decided to judge filtered beers clarity differently to bottle conditioned in the way that you mention.

TD, filtering achieves exactly the same as cold conditioning your beer for a period of time. There's no greater skill in allowing your beer to clear over time against filtering - i really don't understand your logic on this one.

cheers Ross

 

[Darren]

it does need to be resolved for next year so we all, both judges and brewers know were they stand
GB

GB,
Usually a judge has the discretion to move a beer to a more appropriate class (if possible).

Any HBer who actually nominates the exact style on their entry form is a fool.

So long as a Brown ale is in Brown ale class or a European lager is in the European Lager class, let the judges decide.

Darren

 

[Stuster]

Any HBer who actually nominates the exact style on their entry form is a fool.

Most comps I've entered on the right side here ask for the class on your entry. SA ones don't? :unsure:

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

GB,
Usually a judge has the discretion to move a beer to a more appropriate class (if possible).

Any HBer who actually nominates the exact style on their entry form is a fool.

So long as a Brown ale is in Brown ale class or a European lager is in the European Lager class, let the judges decide.

Darren

Its up to the brewer to enter the apropriate style guidline class.Not for the judges to guess what style you are trying to brew.With your example of Brown Ale you would expected to nominate a style such as American Brown Northern English Nut Brown or what ever.If you brewed and English brown and we judged it as Amercan brown and marked you down on points would you be happy.More info about the style the better the judging will be.
GB

 

[Darren]

Class yes. Sub class no. 99% of entrants in a HB comp dont even know there are subclasses

I have received judges comments saying something like> Great Boh Pils. Bad luck you entered as German Lager or vica versa.


My experience also says that a certain number of judges at HB comps have no idea about sub-classes. This is not the fault of the comp but purely the result of having to use volunteers

cheers

Darren

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

+1

GB, I'm amazed any comp has decided to judge filtered beers clarity differently to bottle conditioned in the way that you mention.

TD, filtering achieves exactly the same as cold conditioning your beer for a period of time. There's no greater skill in allowing your beer to clear over time against filtering - i really don't understand your logic on this one.

cheers Ross

Ross this is why I put the question up for comment , I am of the same opinion.If you get 6 samples and only 1 is cloudy then its obviously the bottom of the bottle and you can allow for this , as we did.But when all samples are cloudy I believe it must be marked down.
GB

 

[oldbugman]

however, one of the prime examples, Sierra Nevada, is quite cloudy, a cloudiness that I do not think can be solely attributed to the dry hopping process.

That's how I remembered it too, till the other night when I had one and it was brilliantly clear.

my mate in the states that regulary buys kegs of it says it has changed. and is less yeasty.

 

[oldbugman]

Also, when I (totally untrained) stewarded for the NSW state comp I decanted into a jug behind the scenes and made sure the bottle wasnt even seen by the judges.

 

[Batz]

Class yes. Sub class no. 99% of entrants in a HB comp dont even know there are subclasses

I have received judges comments saying something like> Great Boh Pils. Bad luck you entered as German Lager or vica versa.


My experience also says that a certain number of judges at HB comps have no idea about sub-classes. This is not the fault of the comp but purely the result of having to use volunteers

cheers

Darren

Spot on Darren

I stopped brewing for comps. because of the styles/sub-classes.
Get back to brewing a beer you like and your on the right track...I had too many different results from judges,after all it only what they like.I'll give wheat beer a bad sore of course.

Batz