Feedback On First Biab Ag + No-chill

[katzke]

It is true a brewer will never get 100% mash efficiency.

There are lots of different ways to calculate efficiency. I have never figured out what my house efficiency is as I do not really care. I have a number that works in my software for developing recipes and that is all that matters to me.

The way mash efficiency is calculated is you take the possible extraction from the grain and figure what percent you are actually extracting. The possible extraction is figured in a lab and is the total gravity you can get out of a volume of grain. This is referred to as potential extract and is about 1.038 or so depending on the grain.

Every step of the brewing process leaves behind wort and so sugar from the grain. Trying to extract a few more points from a normal brewing mash efficiency can have negative impact on the flavor. If you want to get more sugar it is better to look at your process and see if you can get back some of that wort.

Some places to look are mash tun dead space, better filtering of hop and break material in the boil kettle, hoses, pumps or pipes, and hydrometer samples. If you rack one or more times make sure you get as much wort or beer as possible. And of course dont spill any.

Dont get caught up in efficiency numbers as most home brewers dont know what number they are giving you. A good recipe will not even give you an efficiency number. All you need is to know your system and have a recipe that says how much it brews, the grain bill, the hop schedule, yeast, mash temperature, what the color and IBUs should be, the final volume, the starting and final gravities, and any special ingredients or additions. Final gravity is not all that important. Even the mash temperature is not all that important With all that information you can adjust the recipe to work on your system.

 

[katzke]

Back to your recipe.

Follow the advice given. Being your first all grain brew have some dry malt extract on hand if your numbers do not work out. Do not panic when you test the gravity after the mash and find it is lower then your SG. You have to account for the water you loose when you boil.

It is easier to figure gravity differences at the end of the boil. Remember to cool the sample to get a correct reading. I am sure you will want to know how you did as soon as the mash is over so here is how to figure based on the mash numbers.

How will you know if your numbers work out? Take the last 2 numbers of the mash gravity times the volume. Take the last 2 numbers of the recipe starting gravity times the final volume. They should be close (within 10% or so). So a beer that is supposed to have a SG of 1.055 and 20 liters has 1100 points. If you make the numbers exact you will get a different gravity in the end as I have not accounted for volume loss by hops and break in the kettle or even heat shinkage. Remember every time you leave wort behind you loose sugar.

If you have a lower mash gravity then expected you add dry malt to make up for it. You figure how much to add the same way. Find out how many points you need to add to your SG and work backward in volume. I work in pounds so do not want to confuse you.

If you have a higher gravity then expected you either add clean boiled water after the boil or enjoy the fact you did better then expected.

I would not worry about it if you were with in 10% or 4 points in a beer that is supposed to have a SG of 1.040. Just learn and get it closer next time.

The reason it is easier to figure at the end of the boil is you have a better idea of volume of wort. Remember it will shrink when you cool and using no chill you will lose some to break. Brewing is not rocket science so as long as the SG numbers are close leave it alone.

Have you figured out yet you need to mark your boil kettle so you know how much wort is in it? Also read in a post that it is important to mark your cube so you know the final volume. It also helps as you can haul water in the cube to get things started.

 

[crundle]

I BIAB and no chill and keep all of my hop additions as per normal, not making any adjustment for no chilling - except for flame out hops.

For my flame out hops, I wait until it is time to keg/bottle my fermented beer, and then add 300ml of hop tea using a coffee plunger that has had the flame out hops in boiling water for 5 minutes, and add it to the fermented and chilled beer. This 'locks in' the aroma incredibly well and gives a good solid aroma punch.

I agree regarding earlier comments that it is important to get consistency more than efficiency, so make sure you mark volumes on your brewing vessel/urn to know where you are at at all times.

I boil to a set volume, not a set time, so in your example I would begin with 32 litres, and boil till it reached 25 litres and then begin my 1 hour hop additions. My urn has a boil that is good during summer but a bit average during winter, and I used to miss my OG targets a lot when I just boiled by time such as 90 minutes and then start the hops after half an hour. I would get more than the cube would hold some times, and other times I would be up over my target OG.

Enjoy your brew day, and take lots of notes so that you will be able to go over your process and make improvements more easily. Your beer will taste great, but I would seriously ignore the 'effects' of no chilling and start your hops from 60 minutes, otherwise you may find yourself drinking a far sweeter beer than you intended to.

Can't wait to hear how it went and see photos!

cheers,

Crundle

 

[Bribie G]

Coming in late here, I just moved house and won't get Internet on till next Monday so I'm sitting at a tard kiosk in the shopping centre wearing heavy disguise B) B)

At this stage I'd just do it - and certainly follow the advice of the above guys re the hops. As far as no chilling making a huge difference to the hop bitterness, I have just completed a 6 week experiment and will post in another thread but, what I did was 2 identical no chill BIAB lagers. Same grain bill and mash regime but different treatment of the hops. Each brew got 45g of NZ Hallertau Aroma.

I used a coffee plunger and boiling water to extract 500 ml strong hop tea, put tea aside in a sterilised flask. Put the pressings into the boil as the bittering hop - still heaps of alpha acids etc in there. It came out with good bittering.

Brew One: pour hop tea into fermenter at same time as pitching the yeast
Brew Two: pour warmed up hop tea into the cube and run the hot wort in on top.

I wanted to see to what degree the cubing process (with that extra time spent by the wort over 85 degrees)would increase bitterness and degrade aroma. So far I can detect really no extra bitterness in #2 but less in-your-face aroma hit when I crack a bottle. In other words I wouldn't worry about bitterness but if looking for aroma I'd tend to add it later as dry hopping or hop tea, once fermentation is happening and the cube is therefore not an issue.

 

[radearling]

Hi all, just finished put my second Biab Ag + No-chill into the fermenter, learnt a lot from my first brew and changed for my second, didn't get enough data to get an accurate efficiency result for my first try but after no-chilling my second for 48hrs I came out with an OG 1.032 compared to a beersmith calculated 1.049 for an efficiency of just under 50%.
I brewed a simple IPA, mashed my grain in a 50l esky at 67 degrees, it dropped to about 64 after 60min.Sparged out with 15l at 67 degrees, 60min boil and hops, everything went kind of smooth.
Would mash temp drop or to lower sparge temp cause efficiency failure

 

[MarkBastard]

Any chance it's your hydrometer?

 

[WarmBeer]

Hi, I found a mash-out step added about 5 points of efficiency when I started doing it. It sounds like you've got plenty of room in your esky, so use Beersmith to calculate the volume required for a mash-out.

A couple of things that might help with maintaining a steady mash temperature: I chuck a couple of litres of boiling water into the esky 10 mins before adding my grain. This brings the mass of the esky up to temperature so you don't lose the heat in your mash water to it. Also, try losely putting a sheet of aluminium foil on top of your mash once you have it fully mixed together, it should reflect a proportion of the radiant heat back into the mash, rather than losing it to the environment (remember, heat rises).

My first couple of BIAB brews were around the 50-55% mark, too, but you should be able to get them up to 65% within a few brews.

Hi all, just finished put my second Biab Ag + No-chill into the fermenter, learnt a lot from my first brew and changed for my second, didn't get enough data to get an accurate efficiency result for my first try but after no-chilling my second for 48hrs I came out with an OG 1.032 compared to a beersmith calculated 1.049 for an efficiency of just under 50%.
I brewed a simple IPA, mashed my grain in a 50l esky at 67 degrees, it dropped to about 64 after 60min.Sparged out with 15l at 67 degrees, 60min boil and hops, everything went kind of smooth.
Would mash temp drop or to lower sparge temp cause efficiency failure

 

[QldKev]

As has been clarified above, efficiency is not just the weight of the grain vs final gravity. Different grains yield different values.

Between Thunus and I we have played with no sparge and sparge BIAB. I believe there is over 5% gain in a basic sparge process. Try this, for a single batch mash with 3L of less water. Lift the bag and let it drain as normal; then open the bag up and pour your 3L of 82c sparge water into it and re-drain goodness into the kettle.

My process is
Mash as normal
Stir and Lift bag
Heat water to Mash out temp, return bag into Kettle
Stir and Lift bag
Partial drain in kettle
Sparge with water
Full Drain into kettle

A bit extra work but 80% efficiency into the kettle is pretty common if I do all this.

Also I find if I crush way too fine I actually loose some efficiency; I assume because I endup with a solid mass that I stuff around trying to break up too much; and the sparge just runs around the outside of the solid mass. Finer than traditional 3V is ok, but if I absolutely crush waay to fine it suffers.


QldKev

 

[black_labb]

Coming in late here, I just moved house and won't get Internet on till next Monday so I'm sitting at a tard kiosk in the shopping centre wearing heavy disguise B) B)

At this stage I'd just do it - and certainly follow the advice of the above guys re the hops. As far as no chilling making a huge difference to the hop bitterness, I have just completed a 6 week experiment and will post in another thread but, what I did was 2 identical no chill BIAB lagers. Same grain bill and mash regime but different treatment of the hops. Each brew got 45g of NZ Hallertau Aroma.

I used a coffee plunger and boiling water to extract 500 ml strong hop tea, put tea aside in a sterilised flask. Put the pressings into the boil as the bittering hop - still heaps of alpha acids etc in there. It came out with good bittering.

Brew One: pour hop tea into fermenter at same time as pitching the yeast
Brew Two: pour warmed up hop tea into the cube and run the hot wort in on top.

I wanted to see to what degree the cubing process (with that extra time spent by the wort over 85 degrees)would increase bitterness and degrade aroma. So far I can detect really no extra bitterness in #2 but less in-your-face aroma hit when I crack a bottle. In other words I wouldn't worry about bitterness but if looking for aroma I'd tend to add it later as dry hopping or hop tea, once fermentation is happening and the cube is therefore not an issue.

i like the experementation. i think that some expanaition could help some people who are new to no chill. the way i understand it cube hopping is adding the hops directly to the cube with the hot wort, which is quite different from what you have done.
by putting in the hop tea you are limiting the bittering potential. the way i understand it is that the alpha acids are removed from the hops themselves in the near boiling water as they are more soluble at high temperatures. when you add the hop tea you are adding some alpha acids and aroma from the hops, but the rest of the alpha acids remain in the hops themselves (which you used as the bittering addition, good idea. so really you are just adding the hop tea to the nc cube and not adding the hops to the cube itself, which is where you get the bittering from. by keeping the hops at higher temps in the cube you are breaking down the aroma which would explain the less in your face hop aroma from your cube hopped beer, as well as some of the aroma leaving the fermenting wort with the co2 during fermentation assuming you dry hopped/dry teaed(??) later in the fermentation.

i dont think that extra hop bitterness is going to be all that different with hallertau with the low aa%, but using a fair amount would be the same as less of a higher aa% hop.

 

[mje1980]

I'll probably get shot down, but since going to No chill, i have never changed my hop calcs. Never noticed anything different. Although, i must admit, im a bit of a freak, as i calc FWH as a 20 min addition.

cheers

 

[katzke]

Hi all, just finished put my second Biab Ag + No-chill into the fermenter, learnt a lot from my first brew and changed for my second, didn't get enough data to get an accurate efficiency result for my first try but after no-chilling my second for 48hrs I came out with an OG 1.032 compared to a beersmith calculated 1.049 for an efficiency of just under 50%.
I brewed a simple IPA, mashed my grain in a 50l esky at 67 degrees, it dropped to about 64 after 60min.Sparged out with 15l at 67 degrees, 60min boil and hops, everything went kind of smooth.
Would mash temp drop or to lower sparge temp cause efficiency failure

BIAB does not = esky + sparge. Either go with a traditional mash or a real BIAB. I bet either will give you better effiiciency.

I said I do not care about my efficiency figure. I put 75% in the program I use. I account for more losses then most so may be getting a higher number. Sometimes I get lower results and sometimes I get higher results. Just tested my thermometer and found out it is off. More practice and a better thermometer will help.

Brewing is one of the only pastimes I know that more practice is a fun thing.

 

[crundle]

There is no substitute for experience in brewing I have found. My first attempts had woeful efficiency, but as time went by, and with some input from Pistol Patch, I was able to get my efficiency up to a happy 75%.

I was worried about the effects of no chill on hop bitterness also when I started, but have found nothing that is noticeable. I have recently been making IPA's around 60 IBU's using no chill and POR hops, and have not had any issues with excess bitterness.

I have heard that it is almost impossible for a person to detect a 5 IBU difference in bitterness, which may explain why no chill has little effect on perceived bitterness.

I was a bit confused by your process since you are using a mash tun and sparging, but am now guessing that you are using a bag in the mash tun instead of the traditional pickup. The best advice I can give you is to only change one thing at a time, and especially to take comprehensive notes on every aspect of your brew day. By doing this you will soon be able to work out what changes had what effect, and how big or small that effect was.

I am now at the stage of having over 60 brews under my belt, and can easily adjust my water volume, boil time and hops to hit my targets each and every time, but I still use Beersmith to keep notes on the temperature of the brew day, and anything significant that occurred.

You will find that after about 7-10 brews you will have your efficiency up to about 75%, just through a process of changing one thing at a time and keeping good records. When you look back after, you will laugh at some of the mistakes and assumptions you have made in your first brews, but the lessons will stick with you for ever, so get in and get some more brews under your belt, and let us know how much each one has improved on the last.

cheers,

Crundle

 

[bkmad]

So crundle, what changes did you find made the most difference to your efficiency?

I'm in a similar situation to the OP in that I've recently started biab and getting low efficiencies. Its gradually getting better though. I've gone from 55% on my first to 66% on my fourth. My biggest improvement came from a good thorough stir at the beginning and end of the mash.

 

[katzke]

There is no substitute for experience in brewing I have found. My first attempts had woeful efficiency, but as time went by, and with some input from Pistol Patch, I was able to get my efficiency up to a happy 75%.

I guess I am an intellectual. I read the then shorter BIAB thread (it took 3 days). I also was on one of the US sites that Thursty was posting to. I followed the outline on BIAB and did well. I guess what I am saying is if you take the advice and follow it you will brew a good beer that is close to what you expected.

Things have evolved sense then. The basic advice is still there. You now have a spreadsheet to tell you how much water to start with. The source for the bag material is nailed down, and you can even buy a bag if you need to. Nothing has really changed except it is easier to do then when I started brewing with BIAB. Like all brewing there is room for experimenting. A new brewer can use the template and brew a good beer the first time.

The only problems I have seen are when a new brewer does not follow the advice step by step. How do they expect to make a cake the first time if they do not follow the recipe?

 

[Florian]

Have you figured out yet you need to mark your boil kettle so you know how much wort is in it?

What would be a good way of marking the kettle on the inside?

 

[mxd]

I use a steel rule and know 1 cm = 1.1 ltrs

What would be a good way of marking the kettle on the inside?

 

[manticle]

What would be a good way of marking the kettle on the inside?

Make a dip tube - anything straight. Use a 1 or 2 litre jug and fill the kettle, mark in whatever increments you want. Mine is a steel tube, cut with a hacksaw every 10 litres. You only need to do it once.

Otherwise buy/fabricate a site guage and attach it.

 

[Florian]

I use a steel rule and know 1 cm = 1.1 ltrs

Make a dip tube - anything straight. Use a 1 or 2 litre jug and fill the kettle, mark in whatever increments you want. Mine is a steel tube, cut with a hacksaw every 10 litres. You only need to do it once.

Otherwise buy/fabricate a site guage and attach it.

Thanks guys, good advice. Will have a look if I have a steel ruler floating around somewhere (thought I had seen one in SWMBO's office), otherwise will just go with the dip tube, out of steel i guess.

Florian

 

[haysie]

I get it now. The grain husk weight is the big let down in that efficiency calculation. I should shell each one of them by hand before i start mashing. Fricking hell, it would take me six months to do a brew.

Just brew with wheat, oats and a little bit of carafa for color adjustment, saves shelling them all.

 

[felten]

Make a dip tube - anything straight. Use a 1 or 2 litre jug and fill the kettle, mark in whatever increments you want. Mine is a steel tube, cut with a hacksaw every 10 litres. You only need to do it once.

Otherwise buy/fabricate a site guage and attach it.

And hope your measuring jug is accurate

I marked up my cube a while ago, then I checked my jug a few weeks later on the scales with some water, and realised the markings and the weight didn't match up. =\ Probably not by enough to worry about, but it makes me wonder. 30 ml out every 500ml from the jug, that is almost 1.5L out after 24L!!! :unsure: