Exploring Fabrication of SS Conical Fermenter: Brisbane Only

[trhr]

Klanger makes a alot of valid points and I concur.

I'm a Builder with a specialised metal fabrication based business.
I could design, certify and fabricate this fermenter... The big problem doing this in Aus? Price!

Before we get too ahead of ourselves with design options and CADs, I would just hand sketch up a very basic fermenter carcass and get Harry to quote it on a small quantity, say 5 to 10.
You'll probably get quite the shock if it's been done right. He's got to make it worth his while too!
Be aware his price will not include pressure vessel verification and registration.

I love the idea of a custom scale-able pressurised fermenter and it's doable in Australia, but really only as a custom case by case for the guy who wants to shell out for it.
If this is the case I would think about doing it for the love for a few... but I'm time poor as it is, so it would be low on my priorities.
Maybe we put together just the specs/plans and certify them and put them out for the AHB community to fabricate/price as they wish? Perhaps an overseas bulk buy out of China?

I'm crossing my fingers that Harry lives on the smell of a oily rag and will do it for the love too though!!

 

[klangers]

Mechanical / Process engineer?

Aye sir

 

[Zorco]

I know Redman9.... This exploration and the rich supply of info is worth it almost on its own.

Harry has worked on jacketed gear - is that a pressure vessel? Can he certify? Don't know yet. Will ask.

One of the themes he mentioned a couple of times was using standard parts, like reducers for cone sections.

MHB: nod to you again, that's what will get us somewhere. Freight from the states or possibly
http://www.whitehorseindustries.com.au/capabilities.php

I can't say that pressure fermentation is on my spec. Recalling another thread, I intend to brew a lot more and improve on the basics first.

Harry is economical, nothing flash, happy as, helps his apprentice... But, you're right, this will cost money.

So what if I put a preliminary budget out there... A price to establish expectations.

$750-$1250

Booargy's boiler of majesty transformed into a fermenter might just about be right for me.

Hopefully this doesn't constrain creative input (as budgets do). Finding the components becomes the game.

 

[Liam_snorkel]

for me - I wouldn't spend coin on a stainless fermenter if I couldn't pressure ferment in it.

 

[Zorco]

Ok, will have to learn more. Cheers Liam

 

[booargy]

If you are going to have something fabricated you are better of getting what you want. It costs money to have things custom made and as cheap as he may be it is still going to take coin to buy materials and consumables. things like argon filler rod grinding discs they start to add up.

 

[Feldon]

Couple of thoughts on a jacketed (double walled) fermentor.

I’m no expert on thermodynamics, but I think at the homebrew scale only the central cylindrical unit would need to be jacketed to provide enough internal surface area to cool or warm a brew to the required fermentation temp (ie. no need to jacket the conical bottom section).

This jacketed central unit, made to the same dimensions as the standard central cylinder unit, could be an optional purchase for some buyers. It would be a great enhancement, but not everybody would want one, and to include it as standard would increase the cost of the basic model. This flexibilty is one of the benefits of the modular concept.

With the cone and lid being un-jacketed you would need to insulate these two units. I think you need to negate the influence of the outside ambient air temp as much as possible. On cold days you don’t want the heat of the brew leaking out into the colder outside air surrounding the cone and lid; and on warm days you don’t want the heat from the outside air getting into the brew via the cone and lid. You want the temp-controlled fluid circulating through the jacket to be in control of the ferment temp. So you insulate the non-jacketed units.

The bottom cone unit could easily be insulated with yoga mat material (just place cone upside down on bench, wrap until the mat overlaps, and cut in straight line through both layers of mat (put a piece of thin cardboard underneath so you don’t scratch the cone surface). You should end up with a perfect cone-shaped piece of mat that when the edges are glued together will form a snug fit over the conical base unit. Just cut out holes where needed for ports etc. The lid should be easy enough to insulate with yoga mat (or just chuck an old blanket over it).

As for pressure fermenting, how much pressure do brewers need? I know that some brewers who ferment this way also use the vessel’s pressure rating to force transfer the finished beer to kegs by using CO2 gas (rather than using pumps). Would this mean a higher pressure rating is needed than needed just for pressure fermenting.

Whatever, I don’t think it’s a huge pressure rating that is needed. Tri clamp fittings should be able to cope very well?

 

[mr_wibble]

https://www.toledometalspinning.com/products/product-catalog/seamless-hopper-cone-funnels
M

Wow ... so I can get an unpolished ~40 litre quasi-conical for $US205 (TMS16914).

I guess the devil is in the detail(ing).

 

[Feldon]

Another (cheaper?) option for joining the modular units together could be this type of clamp, instead of tri clamp.

 

[klangers]

I’m no expert on thermodynamics, but I think at the homebrew scale only the central cylindrical unit would need to be jacketed to provide enough internal surface area to cool or warm a brew to the required fermentation temp (ie. no need to jacket the conical bottom section).

This jacketed central unit, made to the same dimensions as the standard central cylinder unit, could be an optional purchase for some buyers. It would be a great enhancement, but not everybody would want one, and to include it as standard would increase the cost of the basic model. This flexibilty is one of the benefits of the modular concept.

Whatever, I don’t think it’s a huge pressure rating that is needed. Tri clamp fittings should be able to cope very well?

Yep you could only jacket the central part. Bear in mind this would limit the batch size flexibility. With no active cooling on the cone, you'd be limited on the minimum batch size.

 

[Feldon]

Yep you could only jacket the central part. Bear in mind this would limit the batch size flexibility. With no active cooling on the cone, you'd be limited on the minimum batch size.

I don't know. Just using one jacketed central unit, and insulsating the other units (including an additional un-jacketed central unit for double-batch brewing) might work. There's a lot of surface area for heat transfer. Would depend on the temperature of the cooling fluid circulating through the single jacketed unit?

 

[klangers]

I mean that if the liquid level is below that central part, the jacket won't do anything cos the wort isn't touching the jacketed section. If the fermenter is full, or at least full enough to have significant contact with the jacketed section, it could definitely work.

Yeah the temperature and flow rate of circulating fluid have direct influences on the rate of heat transfer. So does the surface area over which the heat transfer occurs, which is what I was meaning with my former post.

Your idea would definitely work - just with a couple minor design and operational considerations/restrictions. I'm definitely a supporter of the modular concept. It won't be easy to join the sections together and maintain pressure rating!

 

[roger mellie]

Couple of thoughts on a jacketed (double walled) fermentor.

I’m no expert on thermodynamics, but I think at the homebrew scale only the central cylindrical unit would need to be jacketed to provide enough internal surface area to cool or warm a brew to the required fermentation temp (ie. no need to jacket the conical bottom section).

This jacketed central unit, made to the same dimensions as the standard central cylinder unit, could be an optional purchase for some buyers. It would be a great enhancement, but not everybody would want one, and to include it as standard would increase the cost of the basic model. This flexibilty is one of the benefits of the modular concept.

With the cone and lid being un-jacketed you would need to insulate these two units. I think you need to negate the influence of the outside ambient air temp as much as possible. On cold days you don’t want the heat of the brew leaking out into the colder outside air surrounding the cone and lid; and on warm days you don’t want the heat from the outside air getting into the brew via the cone and lid. You want the temp-controlled fluid circulating through the jacket to be in control of the ferment temp. So you insulate the non-jacketed units.

The bottom cone unit could easily be insulated with yoga mat material (just place cone upside down on bench, wrap until the mat overlaps, and cut in straight line through both layers of mat (put a piece of thin cardboard underneath so you don’t scratch the cone surface). You should end up with a perfect cone-shaped piece of mat that when the edges are glued together will form a snug fit over the conical base unit. Just cut out holes where needed for ports etc. The lid should be easy enough to insulate with yoga mat (or just chuck an old blanket over it).

As for pressure fermenting, how much pressure do brewers need? I know that some brewers who ferment this way also use the vessel’s pressure rating to force transfer the finished beer to kegs by using CO2 gas (rather than using pumps). Would this mean a higher pressure rating is needed than needed just for pressure fermenting.

Whatever, I don’t think it’s a huge pressure rating that is needed. Tri clamp fittings should be able to cope very well?

Pretty sure all the jacketed fermenters I have seen (including my own) only have glycol circulating on the conical section. Usually the lower half of it. I think the internal agitation of fermentation must prevent stratification and the most economical way is to only do what you can get away with.

To the OP and all that want a pressure fermenter - Klangers is spot on - certification is a very expensive thing as will be getting an engineer to certify the materials/methods of weld- and given that with an OG of 1.056 in my 30L conical I can exceed 2.5 BarG - that is a substantial vessel.

Or just get one made in China - where certification is 'optional'



RM

 

[booargy]

sorry that had already been said :blink:

 

[wide eyed and legless]

As a home brewer I am more than happy with the beer I produce, I built a cool room and can ferment more than a couple of hundred litres of beer in it, cost around $1000 to build and I ferment in plastic containers.
Will my beer improve with a jacketed conical fermenter.?

 

[Zorco]

True true but this thread isn't for that debate! [emoji39]

 

[Feldon]

Bump.

(this ever progress any further?)

 

[Zorco]

It has in a sort of way mate. We are looking at importing the main fermenter cone.

On the phone arm, but judanero has done brilliantly with investigating an option.

They still need legs and things, but well and truly into progressing

Conical fermentor EOI http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/index.php?/topic/91564-Conical-fermentor-EOI

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

Since this has been resurrected, I can answer a couple of question raised above.

Don't try to get the dimple jacket mounted on the cone, it's unecessarily difficult to do and thus very expensive. Dimple jacket is attached using a resistance spot welder which greatly restricts the shapes that can be done economically.

Using the standard estimate of 1.5 kW/m^2/C, a half wrap jacket 100mm tall (~0.05 m^2) will be ample. At that size you can just get it edge welded and it will be OK. I'd mount it just above the cone on the "back" of the fermenter.

Another comment: I get the idea of the separable components to make the fermenter volume adjustable. I can't see why you ever need to remove the cone, so why not just have one joint on the small size and a ring to expand it to the larger size?

Also Triclover clamps in very large sizes are insanely expensive: the 300mm is almost 10 times the price of a 200mm. 2 x 300mm Triclovers will take you well north of $1k.Have a look at standard rim clamps for storage drums, much cheaper. No, you won't be able to make it a presssure vessel but since I can't see why anyone would go to the expense of using a pressure fermenter for a home brewery that's no great loss,

 

[mofox1]

I can't see why anyone would go to the expense of using a pressure fermenter for a home brewery

*cough* williamswarn *cough*