ESB recipe - comments?

[Reman]

This recipe started out from a 4 Pines ESB clone thread, as I'm a bit of a fan (http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/79144-4-pines-esb-alike/). But going on a simpler is better philosophy (and it's only my 2nd AG brew), I took the suggested grain and hop schedules and tried to simplify them according to what appears to be some fairly standard ESB guidelines of around 85% pale malt, 10% darker malt, 5% crystal. I've changed the Willamette (a Fuggles relative) back to just Fuggles and replaced the 60m bittering Target with just EKG.

So things I'm a little uncertain of are

• EKG will be fine for the 60min bittering additions
• 10% Victory won't be too much? I'm looking for a malty wallop from this one
• Dry hopping with EKG at about 1g/L is appropriate?
• I like the raisin-y flavours of the 4 Pines, so should I still get this?
• Mash schedule? 50/20m, 63/20m, 72/20m, 78/10m? Or just straight 66-67/60m and mash out at 78?

Thanks for any comments, recipe below.

Batch Size: 11.69 l
Style: Extra Special/Strong Bitter (English Pale Ale) (8C)
Boil Size: 14.98 l
Color: 19.9 EBC
Equipment: Pot 15l - BIAB to 10l
Bitterness: 39.3 IBUs
Boil Time: 60 min
Est OG: 1.053 (13.0° P)
Mash Profile: Temperature Mash, 2 Step, Medium Body
Est FG: 1.015 SG (3.8° P)
Fermentation: Ale, Two Stage
ABV: 5.0%

Ingredients
2.35 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (5.9 EBC) 85.5%
100.0 g Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (236.4 EBC) 3.6%
300.0 g Victory Malt (49.2 EBC) 10.9%
25.0 g Goldings, East Kent [5.0%] - Boil 60 min 23.7 IBUs
10.0 g Fuggles [4.5%] - Boil 20 min 5.2 IBUs
15.0 g Goldings, East Kent [5.0%] - Boil 10 min 5.2 IBUs
17.0 g Fuggles [4.5%] - Boil 10 min 5.3 IBUs
10.0 g Goldings, East Kent [5.0%] - Dry Hop 5 days

1 pkgs Ringwood Ale (Wyeast Labs #1187)

 

[verysupple]

10 % Victory might be a bit much. It gives a fairly intense dry, toasty, biscuity flavour. It's not out of place in an ESB but a little bit goes a long way. I'd maybe start with 5 % (which is about how much I use in a bigger English ale).

If your LHBS has an English equivalent like Simpsons amber malt then I'd go with that. It does the same sort of thing but I like it better. It's more "English-y" if you know what I mean. If they don't have it Victory will be just fine, though.

You should get raisin-y from the dark crystal (and maybe the yeast - but I don't know Ringwood so maybe not?). Depending how much raisin you want, and how much you want of the other flavours you get from that malt (burnt caramel etc), you could easily bump it up to ~5 % in this beer.

On the mash schedule, personally I'd go the simple 66-67 for 60 min then mash out. If you do decide to go the other one, I'd change the 50/20 min to about 5 min at 55 C. 20 min might kill you head a bit too much.

I just realised it's a ~11.5 L batch. It seems pretty heavy on the late hops for an ESB. That's getting up there with American IPA levels. You want noticeable late hop character but it should be somewhat balanced with the malt. Dry hopping at 1 g/L is OK for this style but maybe not as well as all that late kettle hopping. One or the other, or back them both off a bit maybe?

All just my 2c. :icon_cheers:

 

[Spiesy]

In regards to a raisin-y flavour, I find that often comes from Crystal malts - the darker the crystal, the more burnt raisin-y the flavour.
Numerous other Cara malts will give a similar vibe.

 

[Spiesy]

Oh, and for what it's worth - I absolutely love WLP005 in an ESB.

 

[Cervantes]

I'll probably be in the minority here, but I'm not a fan of the Ringwood yeast.

I have a good ESB recipe that I really like and normally brew with S04. I've recently experimented with different yeast and one was Ringwood.

I fermented at 19 degrees and I get a lot of "banana" from the finished beer. Not something I like or look for in a bitter.

It's been a long time since I had a genuine Ringwood ale, but I certainly don't remember it being that funky.

 

[Blind Dog]

2nd the thought that 10% Victory is too much. Would scale it back to 2.5% to 5%.

Think about caramelising some of the unhopped wort (basically boil 2 to 3 litres hard until you get a syrup - I aim for about 500ml left and add towards the end if the main boil. watch you don't burn it). Adds a lovely rich toasted caramel flavour that's great in an ESB

EKG are great for bittering as well as any where else in the hop schedule

Traditionally bitters have fairly low late hopping, but it can work well if used with restraint otherwise you overpower the malt

 

[Dips Me Lid]

I'll probably be in the minority here, but I'm not a fan of the Ringwood yeast.

I have a good ESB recipe that I really like and normally brew with S04. I've recently experimented with different yeast and one was Ringwood.

I fermented at 19 degrees and I get a lot of "banana" from the finished beer. Not something I like or look for in a bitter.

It's been a long time since I had a genuine Ringwood ale, but I certainly don't remember it being that funky.

I had a similar experience with WLP 005 (apparently the wyeast Ringwood equivalent) on a batch that I didn't aerate properly due to running out of oxygen from a leaky reg.

It threw a lot of banana in the batch, I'd used this yeast 8 times in row before that and had no issues with it.

 

[Cervantes]

I had a similar experience with WLP 005 (apparently the wyeast Ringwood equivalent) on a batch that I didn't aerate properly due to running out of oxygen from a leaky reg.

It threw a lot of banana in the batch, I'd used this yeast 8 times in row before that and had no issues with it.

Thanks for that.

I may give it another go.

 

[manticle]

I would halve the amount of victory.
I would use a good UK crystal like simpsons or Thomas fawcett. As mentioned, raisin is detectable in the medium and dark versions especially.

Ringwood yeast is nice, 1469 is great, 1968 is also great but aerate well and make sure it's healthy - it has a tendency to stall.

EKG is fine.

Shorten the 50 degree rest to 5 minutes and raise it to at least 52 (52-55). If you want to split the sacch, do the 63 for only ten minutes, then raise to 69 for maybe 40 minutes, 72 for 10, mash out. Otherwise 67/8 for 50-60 minutes, then 72/MO.

Personally I'd use the fuggles early as they are quite deep - woody/earthy. The EKG are more floral and suit later additions (fine for bittering too as mentioned).

No idea how close to 4 pines but should be a decent bitter. Teeny bit of choc for colour can be a nice addition but not strictly necessary if you want to stay simple.

 

[NeilArge]

I'd go along with what most others have said here on Victory and hopping. I have used the Ringwood ale yeast and thought it did a fine job but I do prefer the Wyeast London Ale yeast (WY1968?). Throws some nice fruity esters to complement the maltiness and subtle hop character of the beer. If you're after a genuine raisiny character you could try a little bit of Special B malt, but you'd want use a light hand here - a little bit goes a long way.
Cheers

 

[bingggo]

How did you get on with this brew, Reman?

 

[Reman]

Taking the feedback from above I adjusted things as per below.

Brew day went quite well and it's been sitting in the fermenter for 14 days now. SG was slightly higher than expected at 1.056 (not 1.053) but that could be just being slightly better than the 70% efficiency that was dialled into BeerSmith.

One problem has been during fermentation it was mostly around the 22 degrees mark and I was tasting some off flavours in the samples I was taking. It was a cherry cough syrup flavour, I was trying to work out where it was coming from. My final conclusion was it came from the bleach-based cleaner I used to clean out the fermenter. However recently those flavours are starting to recede and cracking a four pines ESB tonight and getting some similar flavours I'm wondering if it's a hop flavour of some sort that is mellowing.

I'm going to give it another week in the fermenter, skip the dry hopping and see how it goes. *finger crossed*

Ingredients
Amount Name Type #
2.35 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (5.9 EBC) Grain 1
138.2 g Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (236.4 EBC) Grain 2
138.2 g Victory Malt (49.2 EBC) Grain 3
138.2 g Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (78.8 EBC) Grain 4
28.0 g Goldings, East Kent [4.6%] - Boil 60 min Hops 5
11.2 g Fuggles [4.0%] - Boil 20 min Hops 6
16.8 g Goldings, East Kent [4.6%] - Boil 10 min Hops 7
19.0 g Fuggles [4.0%] - Boil 10 min Hops 8
0.25 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10 min) Misc 9
1 pkgs Ringwood Ale (Wyeast Labs #1187) Yeast 10
6.0 g Goldings, East Kent [4.6%] - Dry Hop 4 days

 

[manticle]

22 is too hot. Possible cause of your off flavour.

 

[Reman]

22 is too hot. Possible cause of your off flavour.

That's what I thought too, reading through http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html options are estery/fruity or medicinal. I may have inadvertently ended up with both :-/

Is there anyway the estery flavours can be reduced?

Also it does seem strange as on the Ringwood pack it lists 22 as the top end of the range so I wouldn't have expected it to misbehave too much unlike if it went up over say 24-26.

 

[manticle]

Fermentation generates heat so depending on how you read 22, it may have been closer to 24-26.

Ferment cool end of the range, especially at the beginning and raise later if necessary or appropriate.
Various flavours fade or integrate with time. Also your palate may some days enjoy and other times think 'yuck'.
Chalk it up, drink and critically analyse and improve the next one.

 

[Reman]

I ended up bottling and yep it's fairly undrinkable. Although it did go well in a beef and mushroom pie.

Very disappointing but we live and learn. Might leave the next go till the weather turns colder.