Erdinger Clone

[cdbrown]

Les the Weizguy gave me a rough recipe but not quite sure about some of the things and unfortunately haven't been able to get hold of him to clarify some things so will just put it out there in the hope someone else has made this type of beer and been happy with the results.

Use whatever malts you want to start with, and get the gravity to 1.051 for the volume you'll be creating.
You may want to withhold 50% of the extract until the last 10 minutes if you cannot boil the entire volume of the wort. Get back to me if you'd like some more feedback on that.

I'm guessing I should be using beersmith or something like that to work out how much extract I need to get 1.051 for a 23L batch. Or is it for hop utilistation that I get 1.051 for the boil. Should I be using wheat malt or a combination of wheat and LDME?

2kg Wheat DME
1.2kg LDME

Commence the 90 minute boil and add 18g of Tettnang and 12g of Perle hops at whatever alpha they have. The first batch of any beer is experimental. So just try it and adjust from there.
Boil for 45 minutes and then add 10g of Tettnang, then continue boiling for 30 more minutes and add another 10g Tettnang and (if necessary add the remaining extract, then) add boil for 10 more minutes.

18g tett @ 90mins
12g perle @ 90mins
10g tett @ 45mins
10g tett @ 15mins
got it

Ferment with WB-06 at 18-22C and bottle when finished. Carbonate to about 3.0 vol CO2. Leave for 2 weeks and enjoy the hell out of it.

Wyeast 3068 or Whitelabs WLP300 should help produce the flavours you expect from Erdinger, but I'm not familiar with WB-06, as I've only used it once.

I have some wyeast 3068 on it's way from craftbrewer so will use that. So it's really just the malt side of things I'm unsure about. I'm guessing that for this style of brew I shouldn't add the gelatine and it would be best that after ferment has finished to transfer straight to keg or chill and then transfer?

Cheers
-cdbrown

 

[tyoung]

Hi,
With regard the malts, I'd boil with 1kg of malt then add the rest when you turn off the gas.

Cheers,

Tim

 

[Fermented]

Yes, get Beersmith. Best twenty US bucks you will ever spend in the hobby. Great calculator and opens your eyes up to so much more potential.

Tim: If the malt is straight out of a tin, you're pretty much correct. However, if it's bulk malt then putting it into the last ten or fifteen minutes of the boil to kill of any potential nasties is pretty much a necessity else it's just another infection vector.

Cheers - Fermented.

 

[cdbrown]

I'm guessing I'm going to need to get a nice big pot to do the boil in as 2L water just won't cut it with all that extract which eventually needs to be boiled. Might just do a 3L boil with 350 wheat dme for SG 1.043 and the hops. Once it's done tip it in the fermenter and then do another boil for the remainder of the extract.

 

[Fermented]

For a boil that size, you can get away with a ten litre vessel. I used to use my pressure cooker's pot.

Cheap and cheerful would be to grab a big stock pot from Target or similar (plenty of discounts around at this time of year) or for a bit more you can get an enormous thin stainless steel steamer or the like from an Asian grocery shop (try Cabramatta as the prices around there are quite low).

Cheers - Fermented.

 

[cdbrown]

Cheers fermented. I'm not sure the Mrs would approve me flying east and heading to cabramatta to get a large pot. The pots we have are around (at a guess) 8L which is not enough for more than 3L plus ingredients and boiling. Will be out shopping in the morning grabbing some more wheat malt anyway, so no harm in poping into BigW or target for a look around.

 

[Fermented]

Sorry - thought the Guildford you are located in was the one in Sydney.

Lotsa luck shopping.

Cheers - Fermented.

 

[Weizguy]

Hope I'm not too late to help with this batch.
How did you go with the boiling pot?
I hope you got one of over 15 litres from one of the chain stores (Big W, Target, Coles, etc...).

I made some time to get back to you today. I'm sure you don't want to know about how I've been too busy (p!ss & moan, etc).

I've consulted the wise oracle Beersmith and got the following result. I have decreased the hops by 30% to come into line with the desired bitterness of ~18 IBU.
Start with about 10 litres of water in the pot and bring to the boil. Remove from heat and add about a kilo of the DME (wheat or barley, shouldn't make a difference), and dissolve. Return to the heat and recommence the boil. Be careful to dial in the boil to avoid boil-overs, as this will be on the stove-top for 90 minutes. I was just thinking that you could use the original hop quantities if you choose to add as FWH (in the cold water, as it heats). It's up to you - maybe next time?
Add the remaining DME (off the heat) in the last 5 or 10 minutes of the boil.
The advantage of the DME limited quantity boil, is that you can cool in a laundry sink or bathtub of cold water.
The recipe:

Erdinger Clone (Extract for cdbrown)
Brew Type: Extract Date: 18-01-09
Style: Weizen/Weissbier Brewer: Seth
Batch Size: 23.00 L Assistant Brewer: cdbrown
Boil Volume: 14.0 L Boil Time: 90 min
Equipment: Brew Pot (approx 4 Gallon)

Ingredients Amount Item Type % or IBU
2.00 kg Wheat Dry Extract (15.8 EBC) Dry Extract 62.5 %
1.20 kg Light Dry Extract (15.8 EBC) Dry Extract 37.5 %
9.00 gm Perle [8.00%] (90 min) Hops 8.6 IBU
12.00 gm Tettnang [4.50%] (90 min) Hops 6.4 IBU
7.00 gm Tettnang [4.50%] (45 min) Hops 3.4 IBU
7.00 gm Tettnang [4.50%] (15 min) Hops 1.0 IBU
1 Pkgs Weihenstephan Weizen (Wyeast Labs #3068) [Starter 600 ml] Yeast-Wheat

Beer Profile Estimated Original Gravity: 1.051 SG (1.044-1.052 SG)
Estimated Final Gravity: 1.010 SG (1.010-1.014 SG)
Estimated Color: 13.6 EBC (3.9-15.8 EBC)
Bitterness: 19.3 IBU (8.0-15.0 IBU)
Estimated Alcohol by Volume: 5.3 % (4.3-5.6 %) Actual Alcohol by Volume: 5.3 %
Actual Calories: 475 cal/l

Notes///

1. You could easily use all Wheat DME here, as it's about 60% wheat, so that's close to spot-on
2. Although the expected bitterness comes in at 19.3 IBU, that could be expected to be lower due to the smaller volume boil, so it'll be close to the mark.
3. Be careful not to exceed 20C ferment temp, and bottle as soon as the beer is ready. Don't leave it in the vessel too long after ferment is finished. Wheat beer is so suceptible to aceto-bugs.
4. Oh, and allow 30% headspace in your fermentor. If you do not have a 30l vessel, consider scaling the recipe back, as this yeast is aaaactive!
5. this recipe will get you 90%+ of the flavour of the all-grain recipe
6. I reckon you'll enjoy this recipe and come back to make it again (and again).

Beerz
Les (helping you make wheat beer since (ummm...) joining this forum)

 

[cdbrown]

Thanks for the great reply Les. No luck on the stock pot front. Target only had pots up to 10L and unfortunately didn't have enough time to check elsewhere. The Mrs is going to check tomorrow so I might leave the brew till then.

I don't have a 30L one, just the 25L. Not sure a 30L would fit in the ferment fridge. I'd like just enough to fill the corny so perhaps 20L batch. Normally about 2L left from the yeast cake/slurry below the tap anyway.

I take it that once ferment is finished, put into keg straight away and not try to chill it first like I do with current brews as it's good to have the yeast cloudiness.

Considering I really like this type of beer and need to get the keg stock levels up - would it be fine that once the brew is done and transferred, just chuck another brew on top of the yeast cake? Just dump it straight on top (would need to cool the boiled extract/hops first or it could damage the yeast f it goes in hot??) or take it out and then pour it all back on top once the wort is ready and cool??? I haven't tried to reuse yeast yet, only saved the cake of 2 batches into 2L PET bottles ready for when I get the courage to try it out.

Cheers
-cdbrown

 

[Fermented]

Sorry to hear that shopping didn't go to plan.

Yes, you can pitch straight on the yeast cake. There are quite a few threads around about that. However, a cup of the slurry is enough.

If you save a cup of the slurry at bottling / racking / kegging time, give it some mildly warm water (28C-ish is good), a little feed of dex or sugar (10g or so), then go ahead and make your next batch and pitch this lot into the wort then you will be fine.

There are some risks from pitching onto the whole cake. Overpitching is one (ballistic krausen, anyone?). Infection from any remaining krausen or scum at the top of the fermenter becoming involved in the new batch is another.

Better to save and prepare a cup in a sanitised container, give the fermenter its proper clean and you can be more certain to deliver another good batch.

Cheers - Fermented.

 

[cdbrown]

Ok - will put the wort into the spare sanitised fermenter and use a cup o' slurry for the yeast starter. I'll try and save the rest for another batch to save money on buying more smack packs. I really should read up on the procedure for that.

I've changed the recipe slightly in beersmith to bring the volume down to 20L, to show a 10L boil and input the AA of the hops I have which aren't the same as what's default in beersmith. The OG is the same but the FG is now 3 points higher and the alc% is reduced.

Erdinger
Brew Type: Extract Date: 17/01/2009
Style: Weizen/Weissbier Brewer: Craig Brown
Batch Size: 20.00 L Assistant Brewer:
Boil Volume: 12.00 L Boil Time: 90 min
Equipment: Brew Pot (4 Gallon)
Taste Rating (50 possible points): 35.0

Ingredients Amount Item Type % or IBU
1800.00 gm Wheat Dry Extract (15.8 EBC) Dry Extract 64.29 %
1000.00 gm Light Dry Extract (15.8 EBC) Dry Extract 35.71 %
18.00 gm Tettnang [4.00 %] (90 min) Hops 6.5 IBU
12.00 gm Pearle [6.00 %] (90 min) Hops 6.5 IBU
10.00 gm Tettnang [4.00 %] (45 min) Hops 3.1 IBU
10.00 gm Tettnang [4.00 %] (15 min) Hops 1.7 IBU

Beer Profile Estimated Original Gravity: 1.051 SG (1.044-1.052 SG)
Estimated Final Gravity: 1.013 SG (1.010-1.014 SG)
Estimated Color: 13.6 EBC (3.9-15.8 EBC)
Bitterness: 17.7 IBU (8.0-15.0 IBU)
Estimated Alcohol by Volume: 4.92 % (4.30-5.60 %)
Actual Calories: 479 cal/l

When I change the boil so that the LDME is used for the entire boil and the wheat is added with 10mins left of the boil time (which is supposed to be the procedure) the IBU goes up to 27.6. Anyone know why this happens and which of the IBU values is more correct?

 

[Weizguy]

The increase in bitterness is probably due to the increased hop utilisation (efficiency) of the more dilute boil.
The theory states that the more dissolved solids you have in the water/wort, the less efficient will be the extraction of bitterness from the hops. Ergo, the more malt, the less bitterness for the same hops.

I mentioned earlier that the first time with a recipe is a bit of an experiment. You should prob just go with the recipe you have, to get the right balance of bitterness/ malt (also known as the BU:GU ratio).
You may notice that the recipe I provided above, has about 30% less hops for each addition, as compared to the original (and yours).
You would most likely be unhappy with the balance of bitterness if you achieve more than 20 IBUs in this beer.

Hope this helps
Les (on holidaze)

 

[cdbrown]

Cheers mate - will wind back the hops to meet your weights. It's probably lucky I didn't try to brew over the weekend as I might have been stuck waiting for teh wyeast pack to swell up before chucking on the wort and then would have missed the opportunity to split the yeast into a few stubbies for later brews.

 

[cdbrown]

So using a 10L boil with the LDME chucked in at the start and the wheat thrown in for the last 10mins.
Erdinger
Brew Type: Extract Date: 17/01/2009
Style: Weizen/Weissbier Brewer: Craig Brown
Batch Size: 20.00 L Assistant Brewer:
Boil Volume: 10.00 L Boil Time: 90 min
Equipment: Brew Pot (4 Gallon)
Taste Rating (50 possible points): 35.0

Ingredients Amount Item Type % or IBU
1800.00 gm Wheat Dry Extract (15.8 EBC) Dry Extract 64.29 %
1000.00 gm Light Dry Extract (15.8 EBC) Dry Extract 35.71 %
9.00 gm Pearle [6.00 %] (90 min) Hops 4.2 IBU
12.00 gm Tettnang [4.00 %] (90 min) Hops 3.7 IBU
7.00 gm Tettnang [4.00 %] (45 min) Hops 1.8 IBU
7.00 gm Tettnang [4.00 %] (15 min) Hops 1.0 IBU
1 Pkgs Weihenstephan Weizen (Wyeast Labs #3068) [Starter 600 ml] Yeast-Wheat

Beer Profile Estimated Original Gravity: 1.051 SG (1.044-1.052 SG)
Estimated Final Gravity: 1.012 SG (1.010-1.014 SG)
Estimated Color: 13.6 EBC (3.9-15.8 EBC)
Bitterness: 18.3 IBU (8.0-15.0 IBU)
Estimated Alcohol by Volume: 5.05 % (4.30-5.60 %)
Actual Calories: 479 cal/l

Substituted the wheat dme with cans of coopers wheat lme and then reduced the LDME to match approx 1.051. Using the 400g in a 4L boil the bitterness is nearly right. Which to go for???

Copy of Erdinger
Brew Type: Extract Date: 17/01/2009
Style: Weizen/Weissbier Brewer: Craig Brown
Batch Size: 20.00 L Assistant Brewer:
Boil Volume: 4.00 L Boil Time: 90 min
Equipment: Brew Pot (4 Gallon)
Taste Rating (50 possible points): 35.0

Ingredients Amount Item Type % or IBU
400.00 gm Light Dry Extract (15.8 EBC) Dry Extract 11.76 %
3000.00 gm Coopers Extract - Wheat Malt (15.2 EBC) Extract 88.24 %
12.00 gm Tettnang [4.00 %] (90 min) Hops 6.7 IBU
9.00 gm Pearle [6.00 %] (90 min) Hops 7.5 IBU
7.00 gm Tettnang [4.00 %] (45 min) Hops 3.3 IBU
7.00 gm Tettnang [4.00 %] (15 min) Hops 1.8 IBU
1 Pkgs Weihenstephan Weizen (Wyeast Labs #3068) [Starter 600 ml] Yeast-Wheat

Beer Profile Estimated Original Gravity: 1.052 SG (1.044-1.052 SG)
Estimated Final Gravity: 1.013 SG (1.010-1.014 SG)
Estimated Color: 15.2 EBC (3.9-15.8 EBC)
Bitterness: 19.3 IBU (8.0-15.0 IBU)
Estimated Alcohol by Volume: 5.18 %
Actual Calories: 489 cal/l

 

[cdbrown]

I realise this is an old thread but instead of starting a new one, continue on.

First l must say that the above brew was fantastic. Fairly cloudy, great banana flavours, but quite dark (due to extract). Big hit with every one so of course didn't last too long in the keg. The taste was what I think a blend of Erdinger, Hoegaarden and Leffe blonde may taste like. Good thing was the ferment is very fast and as the beer is meant to be cloudy no need to chill or fine, just straight into the keg.

I have done this again in hopes of getting something a little more hoegaarden like (comparing my version with some friends who've done theirs at u-brew-it)

Recipe: Dirty Hoe
Brewer: Craig Brown
Asst Brewer:
Style: Weizen/Weissbier
TYPE: Partial Mash
Taste: (35.0)
Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 21.00 L
Boil Size: 5.00 L
Estimated OG: 1.061 SG
Estimated Color: 13.8 EBC
Estimated IBU: 20.2 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes
Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
2500.00 gm Wheat Dry Extract (15.8 EBC) Dry Extract 71.43 %
500.00 gm Wheat Dry Extract (15.8 EBC) Dry Extract 14.29 %
10.00 gm Pearle [6.00 %] (90 min) Hops 7.9 IBU
10.00 gm Tettnang [4.00 %] (90 min) Hops 5.3 IBU
10.00 gm Tettnang [4.00 %] (45 min) Hops 4.5 IBU
10.00 gm Tettnang [4.00 %] (15 min) Hops 2.5 IBU
500.00 gm Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 EBC) Sugar 14.29 %
1 Pkgs Weihenstephan Weizen (Wyeast Labs #3068) [Yeast-Wheat

Also added 10g of coriander powder (didn't have the seeds), the peel of 2 oranges as well as the flesh of 1 - all added with 15mins left of the boil. The yeast was a 1L starter I got going the day before.

It's been only a few days in the fermenter but it's already down to SG 1.024. There is a huge banana smell and taste coming through (good old 3068) but the citrus and coriander are missing. Hopefully it will even out a bit when it's finished, kegged and gassed.

Now it's quite dark at the moment so looking nothing like a wit or weissbier and I'm thinking the coriander powder is a big culprite here along with the hop particles. Should I have ducked down the shops and grabbed some coriander seeds - would this have helped the colour of the brew? For future brews is there any way to get the right colour or does that require stepping to the next brewing level of partials or all grain?

Cheers
-cdbrown