Electric Biab Keggle

[Rodolphe01]

I have a (legally acquired) keg I want to use for BIAB and I am unsure which way to go with electric elements and Im hoping some input will help me make up my mind.

I have already been stung (literally and figuratively) with a dodgy immersion element so want to do it properly. I.e. I dont think I will go with plan B and use 2x BigW $8 kettle elements, despite being incredibly cheap per KW, what would I do with the 38mm holes in my boiler when the elements invariably clap out and are no longer available?

So my real question is, do any BIAB folk have any trouble with weldless elements and the weight of the bag full of grain resting down on it? I assume it isn't too bad as the bag and grain would settle around the element? I dont want to have to replace it in 12 months or so though because it has fatigued and cracked causing it to short or something worse. The keg has a concave bottom, which means Itd be pretty much impossible to have the element sit flat on the bottom. If I went weldless Id obviously have to get hold of a holesaw, but will have to anyway to install a ball valve. The main thing turning me off an over the side element is that they cost pretty much exactly double what a weldless costs for the same wattage (be it an ebay stanless steel job, or the loop style from G&G). An advantage though is punching less holes in the pot , I just figure fewer the better if I ever want to sell it or something. Given the cost of weldless Id be tempted to install 2 for pretty much the same coin (might have trouble finding the power though as Ive only 2 circuits in my whole house).

Just quietly Im a bit pissed I bothered with the keg + original dodgy element... By the time it is all said and done I could of just bought a crown urn for the same money, and I never do double batches anyway so the keg is nearly 50% wasted volume... You might end up seeing the keg in the AHB Marketplace!

Cheers guys!

 

[Bribie G]

Rudy,
Sorry you are having a rough trot there. <_<

I can't advise re setting up the heating elements, being a mechanical dork but a couple of points:

There will be little or no extra weight on a bottom mounted element at all, compared to just plain water, as the grains are just swimming around there or lightly compacted at the bottom, but no weight as such.
If you get some serious lagging such as a doonah or quilt there is no need to apply heat during the mash, just wrap her up. Especially with such a big keggle with its thermal mass you would probably get only a degree temp drop over an hour.

If doing a mashout then hoist the bag clear of the element, turn the electricity on for ten minutes or so (depends on your Kw, size of mash etc etc). Turn electricity off, lower bag, stir like buggery to hit 76 degrees. Then hoist and drain.
This should also be possible with an over the side element, you just need to lift the bag higher so you can get the element into the wort.

:icon_cheers:

 

[~MikE]

if there's water in it, there shouldn't ever be any significant weight on the element.

 

[Rodolphe01]

Duh at me, you're both exactly right... I'm used to doing my dodged up partial BIAB in a 20L pot + dunk sparge where there is definitely no swimming of grain going on!

So I guess the weldless is winning the race re cost and apparent easier mashout.

I like the sound of the ebay one being stainless, and the price is right. But see OP re getting stung... I've run out of bottles ATM (off the drink a wee bit) so I have some time to think about it, and no rush to brew or make brew gear. On that point, wish I was still in the trade (fitter and turner) for the access to machinery, tools and materials - damn!

 

[prestonpaul]

I have been thinking about something similar for a while when I make the move in to full size BIAB (still doing half batches on the stove top). My thought was to have a stainless steel fabricator make me a false bottom out of perforated steel to sit over the top of the element and keep the bag off it. Then add a thermo well and a tempmate style temperature controller and off you go. As far as elements go you can get hot water service elements with various size threaded bosses in various kilowatt ratings. You could then get a bsp lock ring and a big silicone o-ring for weldless or get a socket welded into the keg. I would be looking for a 2.4 kw element with a 1" bsp thread as a minimum. If you have access to a 15A outlet you could go for a 3.6kw element for double batches.
My plan was to eventually add a march pump to the setup so I could recirculate during the mash to have more consistent temperature throughout but that may be a bit of an overkill
Paul.

 

[argon]

step 1 grab a cake rack...

I always use a cake rack in the bottom of my keggle... i have a dial therm and a pickup tube with ball valve attached installed below the highest point of the cake rack. When the bag sit in there full of grain, it just resst on top of the rack and there's a gap to the bottom of the pot.

Chuck in the cake rack and note where the highest point is. Then install the weldless element in the side of the pot BELOW this line... give yourself a couple of cms just for certainties sake. This way nothing will be interfering with the bag in the keggle at any time. If you want to apply more heat, you can. Just remember to give the whole thing a big stir/mash when applying heat.

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

This crowd make elements - to the many relevant and several irrelevant standards -> http://www.stokessynertec.com.au/products_waterheating.asp

I suspect they may be the source of the elements G&G sell, but at any rate, they would be selling things that are replaceable, etc...

I'm probably telling the OP how to suck eggs, but Cheap + NotDIY + Proper is a difficult mix.

 

[RobB]

I BIAB in a Birko urn with an exposed element and it also has a couple of horizontal 'prongs' at the base, I think one is the thermostat and one is the boil dry protector. I was worried about snagging my bag on the prongs, so I made a false bottom by buying a cheap stainless bowl and drilling it full of holes. This sits over the element and prongs and gives me peace of mind, whether I need it or not. If you are concerned about weight on your element, you could do something similar.

Because the bag was also not in contact with the element, I tried switching the urn on for step mashes. This was a massive PITA and I wouldn't recommend it. The grain on top of the false bottom formed a nice insulating layer so I had a small volume of very hot liquid around the element with not much heat getting through the rest of the mash. Even with lots of stirring and swearing, my temps were all over the place.

 

[marksy]

Hey Mate let me know how you go. I scored a 50L from the local the other month. I asked very politely. My plan was to bung a tap on the bottom and use it over gas burner. Your way sounds good.

 

[leonjw]

I just got my 80L ally pot in the mail today for biab...
was looking into the same sort of set up.

One idea i had was to get a 40cm ally pizza pan (only cost about 10 bucks from the kitchen store) and cut some legs for it to stand over the element and tap etc.
My latest plan is to head down to the local boat builders and see if they can bend up the corners on a suitably sized square piece of ally to make a false bottom for my pot.
The bent corners would then form the legs of the false bottom and i would drill holes in the top to allow water flow.

 

[argon]

I just got my 80L ally pot in the mail today for biab...
was looking into the same sort of set up.

One idea i had was to get a 40cm ally pizza pan (only cost about 10 bucks from the kitchen store) and cut some legs for it to stand over the element and tap etc.
My latest plan is to head down to the local boat builders and see if they can bend up the corners on a suitably sized square piece of ally to make a false bottom for my pot.
The bent corners would then form the legs of the false bottom and i would drill holes in the top to allow water flow.

Seriously... like $4 at woolie's will get you a stainless cake stand... will do the job no worries

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I seriously think you should reconsider the immersion element option. IMHO they are the "perfect" BIAB option. So much more flexible than a fixed element, require no holes, require no fitting or wiring on your part, are very effective as a combined mash paddle/heat stick for step mashing, mean you don't have to have a cake rack etc in your kettle, are easy to clean, can be soaked in a little jug of PBW for stubborn build up, can be used in any container for heating water...so if you feel the urge to sparge or infuse your biab all you need is a bucket not another pot & burner etc.....

To be honest, I just can't think of any way in which a fixed element is better than an immersion element - I understand you have had a bad experience with a dodgey one.... But get a non dodgey one and you won't regret it.

If you do decide to go with a fixed element... Argon speaks the truth and you should go with something very very very permeable like a cake rack to shield your element. Somethinng that is far more hole than non hole if you get what I mean.... The heat needs to be basically unimpeded as it makes it's way away from the element if you have any intention of getting uniform controllable steps or indeed temperatures.

But I truly think you should just go with the over the side immersion element.
TB

 

[leonjw]

Seriously... like $4 at woolie's will get you a stainless cake stand... will do the job no worries

no worries i'll check it out after work The pot I have is pretty wide 450mm i think, I'm not sure the cake stand would have enough area to cover that or stay in place over the element at least. Worth a look though as something simple like that would be ideal.

I have already bought a fixed immersion element for my pot, ebay SS type but I have not mounted it yet so an over the side element is still an option

 

[leiothrix]

I'd really be looking at an element bigger than 2.4kW. I had a 2.2kW element mounted in my 50L pot (which has a larger surface area than a keg, so YMMV) but it didn't quite make it to the boil. Replaced it with a 3.6kW element and it boils with power to spare.

Rob.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

If you can't get a cake stand to cover the whole bottom, you can bend it up so it makes a sort of cage around the element. All you need is for it to stop the bag being in contact with the element's surface. With something like an over the side element, you would be stirring while the heat was on, could see the element and be sure there wasn't any bag wrapped around it or whatever, so even if the bag does touch the element surface, it doesn't matter because it's not long enough todo any damage - But with the fixed element, it's at the bottom, you can't see it, one small area of the bag is going to be near/on it all the time... So you need to be sure that the bag isn't in contact. You will of course still need to stir at any and every time you have the heat turned on.

2400w element worked fine for me in a converted keg boiler... They can be made to work well enoughina bigger wider pot, but it takes a little work. Shouldbe fine in a keg though.

 

[Rodolphe01]

Thanks for the help guys. Looks like I will probably go with an over the side just for the ease of installation etc, or get an urn...