Efficiency still in the crapper

[QldKev]

Take a pic of the crush and put it up.

 

[wbosher]

90 minute mash for me, I got an extra 5 points or so just by doing that. It's an extra 30 minutes to relax and have a home brew.

 

[slcmorro]

With an extended mash, are you blokes upping the temp a little to compensate? Say at 67c mash temp for 60 mins, bumped to 69c mash temp to counter the difference? Or just not worrying?

 

[.DJ.]

i mash for 90-120 or even 3 or 5 hours and dont compensate....you dont loose much temp over that time...

Most of the conversion is done early from what I understand so i dont think it would matter???

 

[DJ_L3ThAL]

90 minute mash for me, I got an extra 5 points or so just by doing that. It's an extra 30 minutes to relax and have a home brew.

So typical recipes (let's say Dr. Smuto's GA) that call for a 60min mash, if doing a stovetop going for a high gravity to be diluted in the FV, would a 90min mash get more gravity points then the recipe 60?

With an extended mash, are you blokes upping the temp a little to compensate? Say at 67c mash temp for 60 mins, bumped to 69c mash temp to counter the difference? Or just not worrying?

My understanding is that your strike temp/mash temp is more important than holding your mash if we are talking a few degrees loss over 60-90min, the effect of upping the temp to compensate could result in unintended results, can someone confirm?

 

[wbosher]

So typical recipes (let's say Dr. Smuto's GA) that call for a 60min mash, if doing a stovetop going for a high gravity to be diluted in the FV, would a 90min mash get more gravity points then the recipe 60?

I've only ever done full volume, so can't really answer that. But in my limited experience, I have noticed a difference with the extra 30 minutes...and that does include the good doctor's recipes. It's only an extra 30 minutes, can't hurt to try.

 

[DJ_L3ThAL]

I've only ever done full volume, so can't really answer that. But in my limited experience, I have noticed a difference with the extra 30 minutes...and that does include the good doctor's recipes. It's only an extra 30 minutes, can't hurt to try.

Cool will experiment on my stovetop rig setup, did a 90min mash for my first brew and 60min for second but were different recipe, will try a 90min mash and do a 2nd Smurto's GA in anticipation that is is going to taste absolutely gorgeous in 3.5 weeks when it's in my mouth.

 

[verysupple]

With an extended mash, are you blokes upping the temp a little to compensate? Say at 67c mash temp for 60 mins, bumped to 69c mash temp to counter the difference? Or just not worrying?

Yeah, the longer mash seems to result in a slightly more fermentable wort as the literature suggests. I only end up about 1 - 2 points lower, though, so only needed to bump my mash temp up about 1 C. You could probably just leave it and not notice the difference when you taste it (although it's hard to judge when you know the FG was lower than last time and expectations sway you).

EDIT: To clarify, it's not the drop in temp that leads to the higher fermentability, it's the fact that b-amylase has more time to chop down the longer chain sugars (that a-amylase has already converted from starches) into short ones.

 

[verysupple]

So typical recipes (let's say Dr. Smuto's GA) that call for a 60min mash, if doing a stovetop going for a high gravity to be diluted in the FV, would a 90min mash get more gravity points then the recipe 60?

It depends... If you get complete conversion in 60 min then another 30 min will not yield anything more in terms of specific gravity (it might have a small affect on the fermentability, though (see above)). If you don't get complete conversion in 60 min then the extra time should help.

 

[Phillo]

I tried a 60 min mash once with no other variables, and went from 70s down to late 60s. I do 90 min now.

I reckon crush size and temperature of your sparge also make a difference. I do a two stage batch sparge and get ~75% efficiency.

 

[malt_shovel]

I tasted some grain after sparging, it was still very sweet.

Maybe I should double-sparge or something ?

Any ideas?

thanks,
-kt

If the grain is still very sweet, then it sounds like you are getting conversion, you are just leaving it behind.

If you are not measuring anything, it is impossible to say, but best guess is that you are channelling from draining too fast, leaving sweet wort behind.

In an ideal world, you would measure volumes added and grain added accurately. Compare the gravity of the first runnings to this table based on the grist / liquor ratio (http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=File:First_wort_gravity.gif). If you are not close to this number, look at crush, mash pH etc and cosider mashing for longer or a profile to improve conversion (acid rest for this grain bill may help). Check out braukaisers notes on understanding efficiency from the link above.

Also measure second runnings if batch sparging to see if there is a lot of sugars remaining. Your taste of very sweet grains suggests you are leaving a lot behind. Slow the draining down to reduce channeling in the grain bed, and maybe consider centralising the false bottom a little more, though I would put that down as a low priority.

Get some tools to measure temperature, volume, grain weights and gravity if you dont have them already.

Cheers

 

[mr_wibble]

The 2x thermometers are on the way

So for the next brew (might make Tony's dunkel-weizen) I'll ...

- Adjust the recipe for 55% efficiency
- ask my LHBS wizard to double-mill the what malt
- verify mash water is at an accurate temperature
- verify target temperature of mash (add more, hotter water if low)
- mash for 90 minutes
- get some iodine and do a starch test (at 60 mins and 90 mins)
- run-off the wort slowly
- measure the SG of the 1st runnings
- verify the temperature of the sparge water-to-be
- verify the sparge temperature is hit (adjust with extra water)
- run-off the 2nd more slowly
- measure the SG of the 2nd runnings

Report back here.

 

[wbosher]

- Adjust the recipe for 55% efficiency

Not sure I'd do that. If you're going to do all the other stuff, that is likely to increase you efficiency quite a bit. Personally, I'd set it at maybe 65% and see how you go.

 

[Dunkelbrau]

Not sure I'd do that. If you're going to do all the other stuff, that is likely to increase you efficiency quite a bit. Personally, I'd set it at maybe 65% and see how you go.

Nothing wrong with overshooting your target preboil gravity and volume.. Just recalculate your hop additions on the fly while heating the wort to boil.. More volume with correct gravities is a much more enjoyable brew session over coming short and having had the opportunity to add a little more grain.

 

[fletcher]

With an extended mash, are you blokes upping the temp a little to compensate? Say at 67c mash temp for 60 mins, bumped to 69c mash temp to counter the difference? Or just not worrying?

personally I wouldn't, as this can then affect the alpha and beta amylase in your wort.

just record how much temp loss you normally get and go from there. I test my mash temp at 30 mins (halfway) for a 60 min mash, and then at 45 mins for a 90 min mash and adjust once. normally i'll only lose about 1C tops. YMMV.

 

[Thefatdoghead]

The 2x thermometers are on the way

So for the next brew (might make Tony's dunkel-weizen) I'll ...

- Adjust the recipe for 55% efficiency
- ask my LHBS wizard to double-mill the what malt
- verify mash water is at an accurate temperature
- verify target temperature of mash (add more, hotter water if low)
- mash for 90 minutes
- get some iodine and do a starch test (at 60 mins and 90 mins)
- run-off the wort slowly
- measure the SG of the 1st runnings
- verify the temperature of the sparge water-to-be
- verify the sparge temperature is hit (adjust with extra water)
- run-off the 2nd more slowly
- measure the SG of the 2nd runnings

Report back here.

All of the above will deffinitly see your efficiency raised. You'll probably get a lower ph from the dark wheat malts as well. I don't know what your water profile is but I would guess your PH would be up around 5.6 to 6 with lighter grains. Just a guess though its deffinitly worth seeing what your mash PH is.

 

[mr_wibble]

[...]. I don't know what your water profile is but I would guess your PH would be up around 5.6 to 6 with lighter grains.

We're on tank water.

It is filtered, but only with a paper-type filter (which doesn't seem to be paper at all)

 

[mr_wibble]

Ok ... here's the results ...

Brewed a smoked porter (no wheat in the grist) designed at a 65% efficiency.
I think I managed to be 68% efficient, since I managed a slightly higher final gravity 1.060 (for 19.2 litres) instead of 1.050 (for 22 litres) - once again, boiled too hard.

So looking at my list, here's what happened:

verify mash water is at an accurate temperature

- New digital probe thermometer matched reading of the big dial thermometer in the HLT within +/- 0.5 °C

verify target temperature of mash (add more, hotter water if low)

- Using the volumes calculated by BeerSmith, the 16.8 litres of water at 75°c gave me a mash temp of 78°C
- This was 78.9°C in the recipe, but the probe thermometer only reads in single degrees, so I stuck with 78.
i wasn't confident raising the mash temp by 1 degree with hotter additions anyway

mash for 90 minutes AND
Get some iodine and do a starch test (at 60 mins and 90 mins)

Yep did both of these.

Starch test was a bit of a darker brown at 60 minutes, but certainly less-dark at 90 minutes.
But nothing like when we tested against flour-water which was inky black, no brown at all.

I again measured the temperature of the mash at 60 and 90 minutes, it was a constant 68°C throughout.

run-off the wort slowly

Yeah did this, sounded like a urinal, and took ages.

measure the SG of the 1st runnings

1.084

verify the temperature of the sparge water-to-be

There was two parts to the sparge according to my brewsheet 5.4 litres, and then 16.5 litres
The recipe wanted these at 76.5°C (or is that BeerSmith?), I had the first at 74°C, and then the 2nd at 79°C.

verify the sparge temperature is hit (adjust with extra water)

This gave me a sparging-mash temperature of 66°C, and then 73°C - I guess it cooled while I had the lid off.
I don't know if this is OK - what should the mash temperature be during sparging?!

run-off the 2nd more slowly

Did so.

measure the SG of the 2nd runnings

2nd Runnings (the 5.4 litres) was 1.050
3rd Runnings (the 16.5 litres) was 1.020

I boiled for 60 minutes, giving me about 19 litres into the fermenter (not 22) at 1.065 SG

I have since diluted this with cooled boiled water (3.85 litres) to 1.050.

I worked out that perhaps I achieved a slightly better efficiency ... maybe about 68%.

I think the 2-part sparge helped with this, and I left the sparge water on the grain for (guess) 10 minutes before running off much slower.

Attached are a few photos of the process (if I can get them to work).

 

[BeerNess]

Great to hear back! You can enter your actual boil off rate into beerSmith so it can give you better mash and sparge water volumes, fantastic to hear that your numbers matched up a lot better this time! I'm sure over time and practice (with accurate records ;-) ) your efficiency will stabilise, probably around 70%. But what ever efficiency as long as your brewing software and results match up you'll be golden! Good luck and happy brewing! :-D!

 

[Adr_0]

Ok ... here's the results ...

Brewed a smoked porter (no wheat in the grist) designed at a 65% efficiency.
I think I managed to be 68% efficient, since I managed a slightly higher final gravity 1.060 (for 19.2 litres) instead of 1.050 (for 22 litres) - once again, boiled too hard.

So looking at my list, here's what happened:



- New digital probe thermometer matched reading of the big dial thermometer in the HLT within +/- 0.5 °C


- Using the volumes calculated by BeerSmith, the 16.8 litres of water at 75°c gave me a mash temp of 78°C
- This was 78.9°C in the recipe, but the probe thermometer only reads in single degrees, so I stuck with 78.
i wasn't confident raising the mash temp by 1 degree with hotter additions anyway



Yep did both of these.

Starch test was a bit of a darker brown at 60 minutes, but certainly less-dark at 90 minutes.
But nothing like when we tested against flour-water which was inky black, no brown at all.

I again measured the temperature of the mash at 60 and 90 minutes, it was a constant 68°C throughout.


Yeah did this, sounded like a urinal, and took ages.


1.084



There was two parts to the sparge according to my brewsheet 5.4 litres, and then 16.5 litres
The recipe wanted these at 76.5°C (or is that BeerSmith?), I had the first at 74°C, and then the 2nd at 79°C.



This gave me a sparging-mash temperature of 66°C, and then 73°C - I guess it cooled while I had the lid off.
I don't know if this is OK - what should the mash temperature be during sparging?!



Did so.



2nd Runnings (the 5.4 litres) was 1.050
3rd Runnings (the 16.5 litres) was 1.020

I boiled for 60 minutes, giving me about 19 litres into the fermenter (not 22) at 1.065 SG

I have since diluted this with cooled boiled water (3.85 litres) to 1.050.

I worked out that perhaps I achieved a slightly better efficiency ... maybe about 68%.

I think the 2-part sparge helped with this, and I left the sparge water on the grain for (guess) 10 minutes before running off much slower.

Attached are a few photos of the process (if I can get them to work).

I think the crush looks good - husks aren't too torn up, and the endo-thingies are broken up nicely. I assume there is some flour at the bottom? Make sure you add this to the mash.

Was your mash temp 78°C or was that a typo? Most single infusion mashes are in the 65-69°C range. Some people stir once through the mash, but don't do any more than this as you will lose heat each time you open the lid - this includes each time you check your temp with a thermometer.

Your sparge water should be 75-80° ideally. The only, single function of this is to transport the sugars out of the mash tun and into your boiler. Hot is good as it thins everything out and makes it easier to drain. You will notice if you drain too quickly, as the grain bed starts to compact and the flow slows right down, with the wort only going through the path of least resistance. You basically have you play it by ear and just monitor your grain bed - you can always try to flow quickly and see what happens if you really want.