E-herms Power Requirements Question

[gava]

Hello All,

Im in the middle of planning a new house and i've got a room set aside for a brewery. I want to move towards a full eletric brewrig but im not sure what I should plan for as power outlets go in the new room.

What I want my rig to be in the end is full eletric HERMS that can handle double batches. Currently I have a 2400 element in my HERMS pot but im not clear on a good configuration for the kettle/hlt? elements? what power outlet requirements I should have. i.e. Amps etc.. Im not sparky so I would like some feed back that I can go to the builders and say I want x points that are y and they should have this.. that.. bla bla..

Any information would be great.

 

[DU99]

2400watts is 10amps..so i would have a extra circuit..c/b's for power start at 16 amps..

 

[gava]

Sorry I was more thinking, what are the standard configurations for the double batch kettle for eletric (probably get a 71lt pot)
What elements are recommend and how to keep a rolling boil going? two elements and turning one off? if i require 3600watt element what powersocket and safety does that need?

 

[hockadays]

If it was me I would install 2 20amp circuits so you could have a 3600w hlt and you could have a 3000 - 3400w herms element and the pump running on the other circuit. When ready to boil you could have a 3600w kettle element going on the circuit that the HLT was plugged into. My hlt is 3600w and it heats pretty quick and should boil a double batch. The auberins pid I have is also good for boiling as you can control the heat output from the pid. My herms element is 2200w in approximately 8L and ramp rate is ok but would be much better if I had a bit more wattage. Hope this helps.

Hockadays

 

[roller997]

It comes down to the amount of time you are willing to wait for the HLT to get to strike temperature, how responsive you want your HERMS to be and how long you want to wait for your wort to start boiling. What also affects some of these times is how good your insulation is.

I susepct even if you are patient and you have good insulation when making double batches, you will want at least 2 * 2200 Watt elements (two single 10 Amp power points with fuses rated at 16 amps each would cover these and 2400 Watt elements).
This would still present you with the challenge since you would be sharing the power between the Heat Exchanger, HLT and the kettle. You will need to think of a mechanism to run only one element in the HLT while you operate the HERMS heat exchanger or the kettle as only ever two elements can be on at once with two circuits. If you have a double powerpoint and 16 amp fuses, you should be able to run a pump on that circuit as well without tripping the fuse.

Cheers

Roller

 

[gava]

the block we brougth has three phase power to I think, will this effect my design also?

 

[itguy1953]

To move the temp quickly between stages you need to get maximum energy input into your HERMS heat source (that is on the hot side of your heat exchanger). If the hot source is your HLT, and you have a coil (with wort inside) going through the HLT, then you need to pump as much heat as you can into the HLT.

I use two elements (1.6Kw and 2.2Kw = total of 3.8Kw) on two seperate circuits for my HLT, and this will move a single or double batch from mash temp to mash out in a reasonable time. Use boiling or hot water to dough into a stiff mash (1.8 l/kg), and move from acid rest to mash temp by infusing boiling water and stirring until you reach mash temp. This achieves the desired temps quickly.

If I was to start from scratch, I would get 2x15amp sockets on a 30 amp circuit put into your brewhouse. This way you can use a 3.6Kw element from each socket. You will only need both elements on while you are moving between stages. If 2x15amp is too expensive, get a dedicated 20amp circuit to your brew house, with 2 x 10amp sockets, and then you can use 2x2.4Kw elements. You can run your fridges, pumps etc of another standard 10amp socket/s on a shared circuit.

Barry

Hello All,

Im in the middle of planning a new house and i've got a room set aside for a brewery. I want to move towards a full eletric brewrig but im not sure what I should plan for as power outlets go in the new room.

What I want my rig to be in the end is full eletric HERMS that can handle double batches. Currently I have a 2400 element in my HERMS pot but im not clear on a good configuration for the kettle/hlt? elements? what power outlet requirements I should have. i.e. Amps etc.. Im not sparky so I would like some feed back that I can go to the builders and say I want x points that are y and they should have this.. that.. bla bla..

Any information would be great.

 

[DU99]

make you sure you have a RCD installed

 

[fraser_john]

Three phase power, could be brilliant. Often a lot of three phase stuff is cheaper than single phase. Do some call arounds to water heater suppliers and find out what a three phase element is worth. You would also need to ask a sparly to quote the appropriate wiring to a shed/outlet somewhere for the three phase.

Think you need to do a bit more research before deciding. But....when I built my brewshed I had the sparky run a 30amp line from the main box down to the brewshed, then one 20amp outlet for the HERMS/HLT and standard 10amp outlets as well.

 

[raven19]

Gava, I am running all electric RIMS at home (right now infact :icon_cheers: ).

What works a treat for me at the moment:

I use a 10A 2200W element in my HLT.
RIMS is 10A 2400W element.
March Pump only about 0.3A.

Then on the kettle:
15A (3600W) immersion element (I love this thing. Awesome piece of kit)
Plus a 10A 2200W immersion as a booster when getting up to the boil, etc.

So I can brew batches using a 10A and a 15A power outlet no worries.
My shed has two separate circuits so I just run 2 extension cords (a 15A & a 10A cord) to the pergola on brew days.

I am using another 10A outlet from the house at the moment due to brewing back to back batches.

I would recommend a 15A outlet somewhere so you can use slightly larger elements, or weld, etc.
Then just a normal 10A.

The above 2 separate outlets should set you right.

Cheers!

 

[cdbrown]

I've got a 3.6kw element in HLT, 2.4kw element in HERMs and the march pump. Got the electrician to install a 32A circuit feeding a double 15A gpo. the HLT feeds off one outlet and the HERMS/pump off the other. My kettle is gas fired, but you won't be using the HLT during the boil so you can use that circuit and once you've finished the sparge the pump and herms won't be used so that circuit also become available.

So glad I got a double 15A outlet.

 

[mxd]

I think the minimum you would want is 20 amp, but then you would have to do some "magic" with the priority of power.

If you only have 20 amp this is what I was thinking pre gas kettle

2 x 10 amp power points (P1 and P2)

HLT 1x2200 elements, 1x2400 (P1 and P2)
HX 1 x 2200 element (P1)
Kettle 1 x 2200 element and 1x2400 (P1 and P2)
March Pump (P1)

With you SSR's you have open and closed, so you give priority to the highest priority point, (i.e always HX, then HLT pre sparge, kettle sparge complete), what this basically means that if the HX doesn't need to be heating it will let the HLT or Kettle have the power (if they need it). You would possibly have some switch to switch between HLT and Kettle for P2.

It needs a little thought about wiring and possibly requires 3 SSR's (S1, S2, S3) and 2 pids (PID1, PID2)
P1 -> PID1 -> SSR1 -Open -> HX
-Closed->Kettle/HLT

P2 -> PID2 -> S1 -Closed->Kettle/HLT
-> S2/3 -open-> Kettle/HLT

 

[gava]

wow! cheers guys for the info.. Sounds like I best have a good think about it and talk to the sparky..
thanks for the quick reponse..
gav

 

[gava]

hey guys,

I had a look at your replys and drew up a controlbox idea.
No idea about eletrics etc just trying to get an idea first.

feedback would be great.

 

[raven19]

Very sexy picture there.

The main thing I see initially is you have 4 elements called up in the pic.

Each element being 2200W will need about 10A. Hence you need 1 power outlet per element (with RCD, etc).

How many elements will be on at the same time is the next Q.

Then go from there...

(I have 2 separate circuits in my shed, and as such only run max of 2 elements at any one time)

When the HERMS is not on, you could have the HLT take that power, so it switches between one and the other depending on HERMS usage.

 

[argon]

Very sexy picture there.

+1... Very nice.

This is almost exactly how i'm planning my system. I have the HLT as you've represented but i still have the kettle gas powered.
In my current system i have the HLT on until i've finished sparging, where i have the burner going bringing the kettle runnings up to the boil. So you're likely to have the all but the HEX element on at once. this would be a pretty heavy drain on the system and you'd be best to look at you're infrastructure to power all this at once.

Also any reason you've not considered using a small urn as the HEX? I'd have thought they'd be a little easier to put together.

 

[gava]

I've updated one of the power cords to the Kettle. my idea is..

1) Heat up the water in HLT (powerpoint2) (on auto timer before i get up)
2) Heat up HEX (powerpoint1)
3) Mash in
3.1)HEX running Element on (powerpoint1)
3.2)Pump running on (powerpoint1)
4) HLT keeping water at sparge temp (powerpoint2)
5) First runnings to Kettle
6) Switch power to Kettle from HLT (now only HLT can have power)
7) Start to heat up first runnings in kettle (one element on powerpoint2 ONLY)
8) Second Runnings into Kettle
9) HEX turned off
10) switch on second Kettle Element (powerpoint1) so now both elements are running (powerpoint1 and powerpoint2) no other equipment running.
11) once boil starts switch back to one element (if a 2200 element can keep a rolling boil on a double batch if not keep both going)

 

[argon]

11) once boil starts switch back to one element (if a 2200 element can keep a rolling boil on a double batch if not keep both going)

It may be worth considering a temp probe or something to control the second element for the kettle as well... i know that my CB 2200W element can bring 30 odd litres to the boil but it takes ages and it's not very vigorous. A way to have both on some of the time and not the other would be a handy thing to have.

 

[gava]

It may be worth considering a temp probe or something to control the second element for the kettle as well... i know that my CB 2200W element can bring 30 odd litres to the boil but it takes ages and it's not very vigorous. A way to have both on some of the time and not the other would be a handy thing to have.

From the calculations that I did on a 4400watt power (2x2200) with a uninsulated vessel it says you can go from 75c to 100c within 27minutes with 60lt preboil level. thats assuming that all the 60lt is starting at 75c and not loosing any temp from being pumped across to the Kettle, then you turn on the 4400watt. Real world would be heating up the first runnings awhile i resirculate and pump out the second runnings. Once thats finished I can crank on the second element and probably just leave them both on.. If that fails i might look at varible switch for one element (although I've been told thats expensive) or just use a spare tempcontroller.

 

[sav]

Good idea having switches on the controller element ,while I am draining the tun I have nothing going through my He so it just stays on I need a switch to turn the element off ,I just unplug it for now but I forget about it all the time.
sav