Dry Beer Enzyme

[Thirsty Boy]

Just joining Pweder in going slightly back on topic. Not that I didn't enjoy the little tiff followed by the touching make-up hug

I wonder if the "dry enzyme" is the same thing as the American "Beano". Beano is some sort of a digestive aid, but its made up of enzymes that are capable of cracking dextrines (unfermentable sugars) into fermentable sugars, so I suspect we are talking about the same sort of thing.

I have read a few discussions about brewing with beano and I thought they might be relevant. So I might throw in a couple of the hints I heard for brewing with beano.

If you put it in your fermentor - Its gonna convert all/most of the dextrines; your yeast will chew the sugar, creating super dry, super thin beer at less than 1.0.

But.... like other enzymes, the ones in Beano (dry enzyme?) are vulnerable to being deactivated by heat.

So --

If you were an AG brewer, you might put them into the mash at the end, or maybe even into the kettle before you turn on the flame and let them chew away on the dextrines for a while, then kill them off with your boil before they go too far and make your wort essentially completely fermentable. Then your beer would be much "dryer" without being completely dry.

A K&K man could achieve much the same thing by adding the enzyme to a mixture of his can and some water, letting it work away for a while, then bringing the mixture up to a boil to kill off the enzyme.

It would probably take a few brews worth of experimenting to get the timing and balance right ... but apparently its well possible.

I dont know the temperatures that the enzyme operates at the best, or anything else technical like that. But you might try a search for Beano on some American homebrewing forums. I've seen it discussed fairly often.

Or, like Pweder's good lady wife, maybe you like em super light and dry. In which case, toss em in the fermentor.

Just a couple more potential options. Hope they prove helpful.

Thirsty

 

[Ross]

Well, i got offered a beer down my local hbs last week & it was one of the commercial kits with enzyme (alaskan ice i think :unsure: ) . The result was a very clean refreshing beer & I thoroughly enjoyed it , no off taste at all. I love my big, hoppy, malty AG beers, but would welcome one of these anytime on a typical hot day here in qld :chug:

cheers Ross

 

[Ross]

Isn't the effect of enzyme dependant on the amount added? If this is the case, surely just adding a little less, might give the crisp finish without stripping the beer too far :unsure: I've never used it & have little knowledge of the product, but if you can regulate its effect, then it could be a very useful tool in getting the finish you want.

cheers Ross

 

[blackbock]

I have seen the dry enzyme referred to on recipe sheets as "Amylase Enzyme", and if that's what it is, then good.

But what I haven't been able to work out is why it suffices to just throw it into the fermenter, basically at room temperature, when AG brewers have to go to such lengths to achieve exactly the right temperature conditions for the Alpha and Beta Amylase enzymes in the grain to get to work breaking down the starches, dextrins etc.

Does anyone know the answer to this? Or are we talking about yet another type of Amylase enzyme, perhaps Gamma I think more information is needed in general about what these "dry enzymes" are.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Or are we talking about yet another type of Amylase enzyme, perhaps Gamma I think more information is needed in general about what these "dry enzymes" are.

Yes .... assuming the Beano that the Americans are using is relatively the same stuff, and of course that the discussions I read were on the ball, then it is a different amalayse enzyme. There are a few different ones, they just play minor roles as compared to the Alphas and the Betas.

Also, the enzymes "work" outside of their optimum ranges, just not as efficiently. But the beer is a hell of a lot longer in the fermentor than it is in the mash tun. Dont know the tech details, but I imagine its something like that.

TB

 

[peterbulger]

I forgot to add that the brews take a lot longer in the fermenter. The more maltier the brew, the longer the enzyme will work to break down the sugars. Also, because of the lower SG mentioned earlier, it is difficult to use a hydrometer to know when it is done. I fall back to the "...wait til it stops bubbling, then another day, then have a look...".

The off tastes mentioned by some amigos in the forum could be due to the enzyme still being active. Just a thought...

Pweder

 

[MHB]

Not going to comment on the taste of "Dry Beer" except to say that of my top 5 selling recipes 2 are dry beers - you can take it from that that they are fairly popular.

There are two types of "Dry Enzyme":-

Endogenous naturally occurring in malt and extracted from it to be used as a brewing additive. These are the same enzymes we know and love, isolated and concentrated. You dont see much of these as they are very expensive

Exogenous made usually by cultures of fungi, the fungi are either selected or engineered to make specific enzymes the same as or similar to the endogenous enzymes or having other properties perceived as desirable.

Using enzymes:-
Enzymes can be thought as a type of biological robot, they do 1 job they do it well and they keep doing it until something stops them.

The most common enzymes available to home brewers are either the "Dry Enzyme" powder we can add to a brew to reduce the complex carbohydrates into simple sugars that the yeast then converts into alcohol and CO2.

The worst thing you can do with enzymes is to misuse them, if for instance you add too little, the gravity will appear to stabilise, but the enzymes are still there working away slowly adding a little fermentable sugar to the brew every day, until the inevitable bottle bombs start detonating.

The other type of enzyme we see are the Promalt and Amlo type of product, these are usually a liquid and can be used as a fermentation aid like the dry enzyme powders.
They are also used in the mash to aid runoff. If you have a sticky mash, high adjunct levels or are trying to get faster runoff or better brewhouse efficiency they can be really useful.

Some of these are not denatured until near 100C so you have to be careful with them.

In Germany those brewers working under the Reinheitsgebot have been know to add finely powdered malt to the fermenter, the endogenous enzymes will act, all be it slowly, like a dry enzyme. As Thirst Boy pointed out; enzymes will work outside their peak ranges, but slowly.


MHB

PS
I have been thinking for some time about how to use malt powder as a dry enzyme, the obvious danger is infections on the malt, notably lactobacillus.
One thought was to sterilise some malt with peroxide, dry it carefully then milling and sifting it to remove the husks.

The aim is to sterilise without denaturing the enzymes.

Naturally the milling and sifting would have to performed in a sterile mill (sic, a blender or coffee grinder). Anyone with any experience in microbiology or enzymology - I would appreciate any input.

M

 

[brettprevans]

MHB why cant you run my LHBS?! that more detailed answer on a topic than ive ever got on all my past question combined from the old buggar who runs my LHBS.

useful info on dry enzimes.

 

[MHB]

Thanks

My aim is to make the shop I have spent 20 years looking for, I like to think it's getting there, but there is a long way to go, the encouragement is appreciated.

Mark MHB

 

[peterbulger]

MHB
That was a cracker response - thanks

I only came back to add a Wikipedia reference with some useful info. Check out


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beano_(dietary_supplement)


Cheers
Pweder

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Nice response Mark.

Great info.

Maybe you could sterilize the dry malt by powdering and sifting it, then exposing the flour to UV light???

 

[blackbock]

The most common enzymes available to home brewers are either the "Dry Enzyme" powder we can add to a brew to reduce the complex carbohydrates into simple sugars that the yeast then converts into alcohol and CO2.

Are you saying that the commonly available "dry enzyme" is made from fungi? :huh:

In Germany those brewers working under the Reinheitsgebot have been know to add finely powdered malt to the fermenter, the endogenous enzymes will act, all be it slowly, like a dry enzyme. As Thirst Boy pointed out; enzymes will work outside their peak ranges, but slowly.

Presumably they need water as well to get started? Otherwise we would have bags of Weyermann sugar lying around our homes

I have been thinking for some time about how to use malt powder as a dry enzyme, the obvious danger is infections on the malt, notably lactobacillus.
One thought was to sterilise some malt with peroxide, dry it carefully then milling and sifting it to remove the husks.

Interesting idea. Keep us informed of the results!

 

[MHB]

Blackbock - more specifically BY fungi, but so is penicillin and a host of other products we use regularly; like the enzymes in laundry powder for instance, I wouldnt let it worry me.

And yes I did mean to a fermenter with beer in it.

Thirsty Boy - good thought, tho I wanted to sterilise the outside of the grain, before milling.
I figure that any steriliser like UV at high enough levels to sterilise would also denature the enzymes and that the inside of the malt isnt a major concern.

But to take the thought 1 step further making Ozone with UV then blowing it through the grain might do the trick; and it would save on drying the grain.

Cheers

MHB

 

[Thirsty Boy]

True, the photons would probably knock around the molecular structure of the enzymes at least as badly as the bacteria.

Maybe you could put a UV tube in the axis of a tumbler with grain inside, that way after a while all surfaces of the grain would be exposed to the light..... dunno.

I do like the ozone idea though

 

[Guest Lurker]

I suspect UV wouldnt work inside a tumbler, it would be pretty hazy in there. When we put UV sterilizers on bore water supplies, if the water isnt crystal clear, we have to run a filter upstream, otherwise the E coli sneak through hiding behind the suspended particles.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Ahh well. it sounded good for a minute or two...

 

[Lobsta]

Just joining Pweder in going slightly back on topic. Not that I didn't enjoy the little tiff followed by the touching make-up hug

I wonder if the "dry enzyme" is the same thing as the American "Beano". Beano is some sort of a digestive aid, but its made up of enzymes that are capable of cracking dextrines (unfermentable sugars) into fermentable sugars, so I suspect we are talking about the same sort of thing.

I have read a few discussions about brewing with beano and I thought they might be relevant. So I might throw in a couple of the hints I heard for brewing with beano.

If you put it in your fermentor - Its gonna convert all/most of the dextrines; your yeast will chew the sugar, creating super dry, super thin beer at less than 1.0.

But.... like other enzymes, the ones in Beano (dry enzyme?) are vulnerable to being deactivated by heat.

So --

If you were an AG brewer, you might put them into the mash at the end, or maybe even into the kettle before you turn on the flame and let them chew away on the dextrines for a while, then kill them off with your boil before they go too far and make your wort essentially completely fermentable. Then your beer would be much "dryer" without being completely dry.

A K&K man could achieve much the same thing by adding the enzyme to a mixture of his can and some water, letting it work away for a while, then bringing the mixture up to a boil to kill off the enzyme.

It would probably take a few brews worth of experimenting to get the timing and balance right ... but apparently its well possible.

I dont know the temperatures that the enzyme operates at the best, or anything else technical like that. But you might try a search for Beano on some American homebrewing forums. I've seen it discussed fairly often.

Or, like Pweder's good lady wife, maybe you like em super light and dry. In which case, toss em in the fermentor.

Just a couple more potential options. Hope they prove helpful.

Thirsty

Not going to comment on the taste of "Dry Beer" except to say that of my top 5 selling recipes 2 are dry beers - you can take it from that that they are fairly popular.

There are two types of "Dry Enzyme":-

Endogenous naturally occurring in malt and extracted from it to be used as a brewing additive. These are the same enzymes we know and love, isolated and concentrated. You don't see much of these as they are very expensive

Exogenous made usually by cultures of fungi, the fungi are either selected or engineered to make specific enzymes the same as or similar to the endogenous enzymes or having other properties perceived as desirable.

Using enzymes:-
Enzymes can be thought as a type of biological robot, they do 1 job they do it well and they keep doing it until something stops them.

The most common enzymes available to home brewers are either the "Dry Enzyme" powder we can add to a brew to reduce the complex carbohydrates into simple sugars that the yeast then converts into alcohol and CO2.

The worst thing you can do with enzymes is to misuse them, if for instance you add too little, the gravity will appear to stabilise, but the enzymes are still there working away slowly adding a little fermentable sugar to the brew every day, until the inevitable bottle bombs start detonating.

The other type of enzyme we see are the Promalt and Amlo type of product, these are usually a liquid and can be used as a fermentation aid like the dry enzyme powders.
They are also used in the mash to aid runoff. If you have a sticky mash, high adjunct levels or are trying to get faster runoff or better brewhouse efficiency they can be really useful.

Some of these are not denatured until near 100C so you have to be careful with them.

In Germany those brewers working under the Reinheitsgebot have been know to add finely powdered malt to the fermenter, the endogenous enzymes will act, all be it slowly, like a dry enzyme. As Thirst Boy pointed out; enzymes will work outside their peak ranges, but slowly.


MHB

PS
I have been thinking for some time about how to use malt powder as a dry enzyme, the obvious danger is infections on the malt, notably lactobacillus.
One thought was to sterilise some malt with peroxide, dry it carefully then milling and sifting it to remove the husks.

The aim is to sterilise without denaturing the enzymes.

Naturally the milling and sifting would have to performed in a sterile mill (sic, a blender or coffee grinder). Anyone with any experience in microbiology or enzymology - I would appreciate any input.

M

i would just like to thank both of you guys for your posts, they are the most complete and helpful posts on the topic i have found on this board so far. cheers fellas

Lobsta

 

[Mantis]

Ok, just read thru this whole thread.
I have a Brewcraft kit in the fermenter that is a tin of goop, kilo of brewing sugars, hops and dry enzyme. Meant to be a pure blond knockoff.
Didnt have a clue what the dry enzyme was meant to do till now.
The brew is still bubbling slowly at day 9 and SG was 1008 on day 7.
Question is, should I just let it bubble away till it stops or bottle it with maybe half the carbonation sugar of normal.
I think I will get some PET bottles for this brew and never use dry enzyme again

 

[tim_mortensen]

Ok, just read thru this whole thread.
I have a Brewcraft kit in the fermenter that is a tin of goop, kilo of brewing sugars, hops and dry enzyme. Meant to be a pure blond knockoff.
Didnt have a clue what the dry enzyme was meant to do till now.
The brew is still bubbling slowly at day 9 and SG was 1008 on day 7.
Question is, should I just let it bubble away till it stops or bottle it with maybe half the carbonation sugar of normal.
I think I will get some PET bottles for this brew and never use dry enzyme again

Mantis,

Haven't bothered reading through the thread, but in answer to your question; let it finish fermenting (actually this is a general rule!). With the enzyme it may go down to <1004. So give it time to finish then just bottle and carbonate normally.

Cheers,
Tim

 

[pint of lager]

Like MHB said, dry enzymes can take a long time to finish up.

The usual answer is to make sure you have a stable sg reading over 2-3 days, then bottle.

With a dry enzyme brew, leave it for at least 10 -15 days in the fermenter and double check the sg is stable over 3-5 days.

Don't trust the airlock, it may bubble slowly for a month. It will also bubble with changes in temperature and changes in atmospheric pressure. Use your hydrometer.