Do You Ever Question The Brewing Experts?

[PistolPatch]

I just wrote the following in another thread...

The point I'm trying to make here is that everyone says you cannot produce identical beers on two different bits of equipment. I think this is a bit of mis-information stemming from the 'Adelaide test.' In that test, for a start, people were not using the same thermometers. How on earth they would expect to produce the same beer without calibrating their thermometers has me buggered for a start!

Sure, in some testing, different systems will play a part but for a lot of testing, different systems will not. (Having identical thermometers for example goes a long way to solving a lot of differences.) I'm actually going to go out on a limb here and will criticise a brewing god - Jamil. He says in an audio that he liked one beer that was brewed with 12% evaporation rate but couldn't stand the one brewed at 15%.

I have real problems with accepting that gospel. If you are mucking around at that fine a level then I think you would have to brew the beer at identical times on identical equipment, repeat the brew several times and do several tastings. I heard no mention that this was done.

I've done wine-tasting courses in the past and been able to get varieties, regions and even vineyards correct but surely, in beer-brewing, one test should not be taken as gospel and certainly a lot of gospel out there is totally irrelevant to 99% of brewers.

I dunno!

Does anyone else really wonder where a lot of our brewing 'gospel' comes from?

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

In all respects I am at best an Agnostic - at worst an Atheist.

This tradition of mine in cynicism continues into brewing. I find that on many subjects, the experts often differ and that the consensus (and often the other major opinions) often don't work for me.

It's as much about me as it is everyone else, but when I can brew the same beer two or three times and you cannot tell the difference between them, I will consider myself on the path to expert-ness...

 

[Steve Lacey]

Well, what it really comes down to is there a reason for it? A mechanism to explain a difference? Or is just an assertion as an article of faith?

Take the difference in evaporation rate example ... presumably this means that the boils were of differing intensity, or had different degrees of boiler enclosure ... could these things lead to differences in the end beer? Well, potentially, yes they could. Mailliard reactions and hop isomerization on the one hand, off-putting flavour compounds on the other. So there might be something to the guy's assertion that the beers were different. And if he has finely tuned palate, maybe those differences are very stark to him.

On other matters, we can theorize all day about why no-chill or BIAB is not supposed to produce good beer, but the theoretical mechanisms don't always hold up and/or are based on assumptions that don't apply at our scale.

So it just comes down to the application of the basic scientific method. Develop a hypothesis, test it, decide whether the evidence is consistent with the hypothesis, if not modify the hypothesis and re-test, and so on. And don't take anything at face value. Look for the underlying explanation, decide if it sounds plausible, but test it for yourself.

This is probably a long way from what you were talking about Pat. I dunno, but it set me off on a mini-rant so there must have been something in your question.

 

[Insight]

Pat, I think Jamil is saying that if you and I brew the same recipe using the same ingredients and methods on our systems, we will have different results. This is because of differences in a) burner capacity/boiloff, B) kettle shape/size, c) fermenter shape/size/temp control, d) yeast health and pitching rate, e) grain crush, f) water profiles, g) efficiency, h) etc....

Of course it is possible to brew the same beer on different kit - look at Anheuser-Busch. They have plants all over the US getting raw ingredients that may be different depending on source (particularly water) and they manage to turn out a consistent product. They even allows for seasonal changes in crops from year to year - this year's batch of hops may be significantly different from last year, but the brewers need to make the same product as last year.

 

[Tony]

I think most of the "Good Word" on here comes from peolpes experiences PP!

Everyone is going to have different experiences and therefor different opinions on different subjects.

Thats why its a forum! you get lots of information and you can then go with that and pick out what you like the sounds of or what works best for you!

I dont think there are any "experts" on here.

I know i make good beer, i have comp trophies, but that doesnt make me a good brewer, just better that most others that entered the comp.

I know lots about brewing, i know more about beer after a few years of brewing in my garage than my dad who has worked in the beer industry for over 20 years, but i still find ideas and info on here every day that makes me stop and think about my methods or smoething new to try out.

I will never consider myself an expert.......... not at anything! There is always something to learn and someone who knows something that you can learn!

I have this attitude with everything in life.

PP .....i get a general gist in your posts lately that you are very sceptical of lots of things.

brew a beer you like and drink it dude

cheers

 

[MHB]

Mankind has been making beer (well Alcoholic beverages) since the Stone Age.
In the last 30 or 40 thousand years we have learned a thing or two, some of these are rules some are guidelines, some traditions and in there are opinions and growing knowledge of a process that is too complex to be defined.

My personal definition of brewing is:-

Brewing is an artistic interpretation of a science.

A bit like architecture, concrete has very real, well understood limitations on what it can withstand in terms of loads and strains, thats engineering the shapes that can be made, within those constraints can be art.

Likewise with brewing; there are things we can't change, like the peak activity temperatures of Alpha and Beta Amylase. These are constraints within which we have to work, they are real and not subject to negotiation - or opinion. No point in trying its a waste of time.

Understanding the constraints and using them allows us to change the outcomes, to adjust the balance between fermentable and body building components; to create the beer we want. This is subject to personal preference, when we talk about the beer we want my opinion is as valid as that of a so called expert, because it is subjective.

Over the last couple of years I have been studying brewing formally and now have qualifications in brewing, do I know it all - hell no I'm just figuring out how little I do know and how much more there is to learn.

One guiding principal I have learned is:-

Everything you do affects the beer.

MHB

 

[InCider]

I make beer that I love and beer that I like. With beer I only like, I make it less, and try new things. With beer I love I make it even less frequently (but that choc mahog porter is the bloody Lorelei) and make beer for me in my shed. If there was a god, and he or she had any opinion on it, I still would not let them in my shed unless they were a brewer so we could talk brewere. I care not for reviews of commercial beers, but my reviews of my own beers. And I love it when the kind craftsmen of the Brewerhood have let me graze upon their great range of tasty ferments.

I like beer.

maybe I should go and like some food... :blink:

 

[PMyers]

He says in an audio that he liked one beer that was brewed with 12% evaporation rate but couldn't stand the one brewed at 15%.

If you are mucking around at that fine a level then I think you would have to brew the beer at identical times on identical equipment, repeat the brew several times and do several tastings.

I agree. In fact, I would go so far as to say if you are mucking around at that fine a level then you are either attempting to break into the professional circuit, or you are a wanker and have far too much time on your hands.

Cheers,
Pete

:chug:

 

[Stuster]

Nope. Not me, sir. I let the big folks tell me what to do.









Actually, I think Steve hit the nail on the head. There is a lot of great information out there from the many excellent brewers who have laboured hard to produce great beer down the years, but ....

So it just comes down to the application of the basic scientific method. Develop a hypothesis, test it, decide whether the evidence is consistent with the hypothesis, if not modify the hypothesis and re-test, and so on. And don't take anything at face value. Look for the underlying explanation, decide if it sounds plausible, but test it for yourself.

Tony also made a sharp observation. Brew something you like, Pat, and drink it. :chug:

(maybe a no-lagered lager would be good and you can add some real data to my lagering thread :lol: )

 

[Wortgames]

Question everything Pat, and believe nothing. Sacred cows are there to be eaten IMO.

One of the reasons the Aussie wine industry has dealt such a blow to the French (who have been making wine a lot, lot longer) is because the French had all these fixed rules and conventions. Their winemaking knowledge was developed over centuries of superstition and results that were never scientifically tested.

The Aussies start making wine, and virtually from day one they question everything. They experiment and research and sort the wheat from the chaff. This gives them a far stronger base from which to experiment, and they don't waste time and resources sacrificing virgins to appease gods that don't exist.

Experienced brewers are a great source of knowledge, but I don't think we should accept everything they tell us as gospel. Often people come to a conclusion that fits the evidence in their circumstances, and it becomes fixed in their mind as an irrefutable truth. Change the circumstances, however, and it may actually turn out to be a bit more complex (or simpler) than they gave it credit for.

You won't go far wrong from following the experts, but you won't break any ground or brew better beer without testing their assertions.

 

[Kai]

So it just comes down to the application of the basic scientific method. Develop a hypothesis, test it, decide whether the evidence is consistent with the hypothesis, if not modify the hypothesis and re-test, and so on. And don't take anything at face value. Look for the underlying explanation, decide if it sounds plausible, but test it for yourself.

Werd.

 

[Steve Lacey]

Werd.

Thanks Kai. I have to admit, I didn't know whether you were paying me out or paying me a compliment. Thank goodness for Google.

 

[PistolPatch]

Agh!!!!!

I wrote a post here earlier replying to each and every one of you up to Post #9. I spent at least an hour and a half writing that post and now it has gone. Wrote it at the start of the mash too so it made sense

Kai, is there any way you can se if it hasn't dissapeared? It was bloody long and had heaps of compliments to all the above :angry:

P.S. So sorry guys, any other post I wrote tonight I could have done without. Spewing!

 

[Kai]

Thanks Kai. I have to admit, I didn't know whether you were paying me out or paying me a compliment. Thank goodness for Google.

Thank the lord for urbandictionary then eh?

Pat, Sorry old man but mystery posts to the ether don't fall into my domain.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I suspect that most of the "gods" of brewing would be bloody horrified to be refered to as such, and even more horrified if they found out that you were taking their word as the unquestioned truth.

I can only imagine that those guys actually became figures of respect in the brewing world precisely because they were prone to thinking up knew interpretations of the standard brewing wisdom, trying it out and if/when it worked, sharing the joy.

Lets all be thankful that there is so much room for interpretation, or we would all be brewing exactly the same beers in exactly the same way.

That wouldn't be nearly as much fun.

Thirsty

 

[matti]

Sound like this topic ought to be at the "PUB" Lol
Any way.....
Regarding questioning the experts...

No I don't!

I take everything with a pinch of salt, or gypsum for that matter, and try it out myself and make my own notes if it applies to me.

If a certain application of brewing works for many, let us say BIAB, and there is a lot of back up for it, then I might take it as truthful claim.

That is where the collective result(s) are presented and the majority of feed back is positive, which makes this Forum the expert Advicer and us as the contributors.

I alway joke about BIAB as the fore runner TEA beer.
Just boil the kettle and dunk your bag. Voila! wort. Chuck it on the soda machine....

PP and all cu

 

[Barry]

Good Day
A simple motto to follow is:
" Don't follow a home brewer's advice untill you have tasted their beers.""
Now this can't be done on forums but you do get feedback about people's beer, brewing and quality of advice etc. It is great to get all the ideas, home brewing is magic and fun so try the info/advice that you like.
I might brew two beers side by side and see what greater evapouration does (then I might not).

 

[Maxt]

I also tend to most respect the word of brewers with awesome beers (plenty of those down here in the ACT).

What I do worry about is all the recycled info. For example a new member asks a question..a slightly more senior member offers advice (to the question they themselves asked a few months earlier). After a while the new member sees a post from a new guy asking the same question...and around it goes (bearing in mind that the info may be correct).
The internet is a great tool, but unless you challenge processes and ideas, you can end up just recycling the same stuff over and over.

 

[yardy]

pp,
man, you worry toooo much, if you're not careful you can turn a hobby into a chore, been there done it.

jmho
cheers
yard

 

[KoNG]

Agreed..!
i think your over analysing everything a little too much....

That said, Jamil has won every award under the sun from my understanding, so he must be pretty cluey!
be careful PP or soon you may end up like Jamil, when you bottle your brew and get the missus to help, all workers have to scrub down, wear gloves/face mask and NO talking........