Do You Ever Question The Brewing Experts?

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The way I look at it is as follows.

1. I do not want to reinvent the wheel.

2. Like any science or art, you read up on the past, see what the experts say or did, follow them, maybe try to emulate them, and then make your product or craft your own after you have become pretty good at what you are doing. For example, Michalangelo and DaVinci were apprenticed/trained in their craft for a good while, by some masters/mentors, but then kinda branched out on their own (or put their particular styles/twists/creativity into it) to become better or more recognizable than their masters. This does not mean that their masters were wrong in what they taught them, it just means that the true geniuses used the foundation they learned to make brilliant pieces.

Now, could the true geniuses have made their masterpieces without the classical training? I am not sure... I tend to think not, but there are always exceptions.

3. History books, recipe books, guide books all exist for a reason. They exist to present a collection of work done by someone to present to you for the purpose of your consumption, and on the idea that they are mostly accurate. This allows society to bootstrap itself and advance. Without history/guides/etc, people would never learn and society would not progress.

Since my homebrewing career is fairly short lived compared to almost all of the experts out there, I look at what they say as pretty much correct, until my experience proves them wrong. The advice and recipes that I have followed so far from Denny Conn, John Palmer, and Jamil Zainasheff et al. have allowed me to brew faster, with more confidence, and better, than what I think I would have been able to do without them.


On the post above about Jamil... I personally do not take what he says as gospel, but, since he has won SO MANY awards, I have to take what he says very seriously. I find also (from listening to almost every single Jamil Show), that he seems to be pretty humble, and does not come across to me as someone who says that what he says are hard facts. I think quite the opposite, when Jon P. says something stupid (it happens a lot), most of the time Jamil will disagree, ad say "WELL......."......... which I take as meaning that he is disagreeing, and that what he comes across as saying is his opinion, and not a hard fact.

:beer:
 
I have gotta agree with PP, Thirsty you need to post more as everything i have read of yours makes sense and if it doesn't well i'm not going to loose any sleep over it, after all its only a bloody hoby. isn't this a public forum?????????? sometimes i wonder.

Thirsty keep posting, keep being imformative but most of all keep being yourself as this is what its all about.

:D

rook
 
Yep Pat's right (shit) Thirsty buddy don't go and leave us here.

Your posts are not only well writen but very informative and thought provocing, The boil info you sent Pat has caused me to spend quite some time yesterday going back though brew records and notes.
It has allso caused me to order a 4th fermenter so I can brew again this week to try out a lot slower boil.

Thanks for the time you have taken to post here , I know how much time AHB can take out of a day , but if the posts are helpfull such as yours its time well spent.

:beer:
 
I've just re-read what the Thirsty Boy has written in this thread and I can find nothing wrong with it. It's always good to read stuff that is contemplative and not simply rehashed folklore.

For the record, Thirsty Boy gets Trust Points from me. The beer he makes *at home* is quite impressive.

We need people who write long posts to balance the stuff of PP's I have to read... :D
 
I've read through, and thirsty's posts make sense to me as well!

My perspective is - you show me an expert and I'll question him. For whatevever reason, an expert is only an expert until another expert comes along. and another, and another.
Stop questioning the way things are done, and you will never find a better way, and evolution stops. cold. No new ways of doing anything, no new products, no nice suprises, and no finding out the hard way that that is not the way to do things. (which is how I seem to find out....)

There are a million different ways to skin a cat, I'm pretty good at my way, not so good at others. But I always like to see how others do it, ad if I can take part of their method and adapt it to fit in my cat skinning routine.
Never trust a cat skinner until you've seen his furcoat and the shape of his knife.

PS. No cats were harmed in the writing of this post.
 
I'm another joining the group hug for Thirsty and Jamil. :lol:

You clearly have a love of brewing, lots of knowledge about it and a great questioning attitude. I'm with PP. Post more. :D

datamike, I don't really think you are right about Jamil. He's fairly sure that his way is a good way, I'll give you that, but I think he often mentions other ways to do things and in his posts I've seen on different sites he's a fairly easy going guy who doesn't appear to take himself too seriously. He's certainly goes out of his way to help other brewers. I've learned a lot from his shows and his recipes are interesting. But as you say

The bottom line is: listen to everyone, read everything, then do your own testing and draw your own conclusions!

A good motto to live by. Hopefully you'll keep posting on the forum here as well. Welcome.
 
Start a show, write a book or even a radio show Thirsty.
I wish I had more time to dwell on these posts, but being a father of three young boys, I think I am doing rather well.
I am not going to take side or even try to revive this debate.

I just think that great minds "can" make great beer. and I only wish I had a fraction of what you "god" brewers have.
Meaning, time, space and oodles of ideas.

Meant to say heaps more but my two year old wants my attention who Roo
thanks
 
What a fantastic thread and I think it sums up how the members of this forum can OPENLY discuss opinions with the knowledge that they are entitled to their opinion but won't necessarily be flamed to a crisp. Obviously that does happen on occasion but then we are human and some are prone to forruming under the influence too :ph34r: .
Blokes like Thirsty and PP (and Jamil for that matter) are probably more prone to getting the rough end of the stick as they take the time to thoroughly explore topics which gives a greater target to sling c#*p. FWIW chaps, thanks for challenging brewing folklore and for enabling us with info to ultimately MAKE BETTER BEER !
I have gained soooo much knowledge from this forum, the people who have 'taken one for the team' deserve a medal for publicising their mistakes so we can learn without going through the same motions. I think BC nailed it when he said "The web only enhances information overload it is up to us to filter it, find what works for us personally etc."
We all get to know whose statements we can rely on and those that we smile at. It's what makes things interesting !
Happy brewing everyone.
Cheers
Doug
 
On the post above about Jamil... I personally do not take what he says as gospel, but, since he has won SO MANY awards, I have to take what he says very seriously

No comments on Jamil, since I have never listened to any of his podcasts and only looked at a few of his online submissions. However, winning lots of awards does not automatically mean a person gives good advice to the average homebrewer.

Beyond that I agree with your post, if I can sum it up as "Know the rules, then break them".
 
Beer is the winner on the day and Beer could not have done it without Thirsty - it's a chicken/egg thing. :rolleyes:

3 Cheers for Beer that's thirsty! :beerbang:

3 Cheers for Thirsty's beer! :beerbang:
 
Beer is the winner on the day and Beer could not have done it without Thirsty - it's a chicken/egg thing. :rolleyes:

3 Cheers for Beer that's thirsty! :beerbang:

3 Cheers for Thirsty's beer! :beerbang:


Just because I feel like changing this Faaarrrking Topic - Want some Habanero's Sean, returned home to a shitload on the bushes today. Swap for some sauce or jam.
 
Just because I feel like changing this Faaarrrking Topic - Want some Habanero's Sean, returned home to a shitload on the bushes today. Swap for some sauce or jam.
G'day Michael,

It would be grand to take some off you hands seeing as you're offering. The last Habanero sauce I made is too hot now that it has fermented a little... I need some hot ones to use for a new sauce and this time mix them up a bit with some other fruits/veg/hops! Egads! Epiphany! Hops Habanero Sauce! AAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh!

I will see you before the week is out to discuss!

Too excited to speak! Hops + Chillies! Time to google... and find that other thread...

InCider...
 
Looks like Screwtop is back - lol! Excellent.

There you go Thirsty. Lots of positive proof that you shouldn't be apologising for your posts in the slightest. Top stuff!

Hey Doogie, on the occassion I do get the rough end of the stick, I usually deserve it ;) It's the undeserved ones that throw me :wacko: Anyway it doesn't happen too often though it might after my next question!

While we are discussing experts, one question I have, and it is just a question, is why books such as New Brewing Lagers and Designing Great Beers are recommended so much to new AGers?

I bought both these books and have found them, at my stage of brewing, to be quite unhelpful. Some things in them strike me as pretty weird. For example, in New Brewing Lagers, when I do go to look up something that I would expect top be in such a book it's either not there or the information is sparse or even impractical for the home brewer. I remember having this problem when looking up diacetyl rests.

In Designing Great Beers I was astounded that the hop measurements were given in grams with no indication of the alpha acid rating. I asked about this before on the forum but never received a satisfactory reply. This put me off a bit, though I can see this book gaining more relevance to me sooner rather than later.

Good to see that you had some benefit from Noonan matti. Hopefully down the track I'll get some too. I just find these strange books to recommend to beginners. Am I missing something obvious here?

Cheers guys,
Pat
 
Thirsty, I'm with you.

I figure in life you can learn by your mistakes, or better still learn by others mistakes. If you just learn and don't know about or understand the mistakes that can be made than it is time to start making them again because the underlying conditions may have changed and to do something may no longer be a mistake. This is the fundamental way to evolve things.

Keep posting or I'll send the boys 'round...
 
PP
Forgive me if I ever recommended it to a beginner as it has the more technical aspect of brewing lager beer in a topical manner.

I would never recommend this to a novice.

I consider myself at the beginning of intermediate and find there are definitely no absolutes in brewing beer.

I merely think it is a great book in understanding the principals of the chemistry in brewing and to use it as a reference has assisted me a lot.

Brewing AG can be as simple or as hard as you like.

I want to know as much as my brain can store and comprehend prior making the leap to AG and lager beers.

I would hate to waste $40-120 in ingredient and several hours producing a beer that I don't want to drink.

I agree that the Rest issue was a little bit confusing at the beginning but after brewing 2-3 lager you'll get the hang of it.

Read a recent thread and Zwickel got some great ideas but also very technicial lol
 
Regarding the sub-discussion blooming between matti and PistolPatch...

People learn and absorb things in different ways and in different sequences.

I used a gift voucher to purchase Designing Great Beers and have read most of it to date (I don't currently care about black beers or bears, so haven't looked at that) and found it to be really useful. But, I don't find myself referring to it as much as I expected to in the beginning. Ditto Brew Like a Monk - which I would whole-heartedly recommend to anyone wanting to grow their obsession into the area of those crazy Belgians. The online version of How To Brew got read a lot, but I found the AG stuff to be of only passing interest.

Once I experienced the AG thing via the BIAB process, that was enough for me to work through the questions it raised and get me to where I am today (where-ever the fork that is!). Answers came from all over the place - this and other discussion forums, web sites, books; some I just pulled out of my own arse. I probably could have never read HTB or DGB and got to the same place.

My mind works in a particular way and I address problems or issues as I encounter or expect them. Everyone else here does the same thing, but the order and timeframe will be different.
 
G'day.
Seth here, jumping on the bus after it's already left the station.

I remember my accepting attitude of brew wisdom when I first discovered that the internet had "beer recipe archives".
I consumed numerous books and downloaded many recipes. It only took me a little while to brew a few and discover that there is some misguided or downright misleading brew info on the web.
As a scientist, I believe that it's best to approach the experiment with an open mind and then form your opinion based on the result.

I also discovered early, that my local water works well with wheat beer, which in turn is quite agreeable to my palate.

If I hadn't believed in the "Scientific method", I wouldn't have tried to brew a Berliner Weisse or a Gose.

That brings me to my next point: Recipes in BYO magazine. I have found these, after initial cautiousness, to be quite a good source of material to base a beer upon. However, and I'm sure a few of you could back me up here, Never take their information as gospel. Yes, they have internationally recognised beer authors creating material for them, and now the much-lauded Jamil, but they sometimes have serious errors in the proof-reading or fact-verification of the articles. I have emailed them about it several times and got no reply. They must be busy doing something else.
So always take the info with a grain of salt (or 1/3 of a cup, for the Gose recipe) and modify to what you think is right.

It takes a little while to recognise what others with more experience see as "common sense". I'm sure I could go on and on, Pistol-Patching (spot ya, Pat) about how common sense is not common at all.

Allow me to wind up by stating that you should form your own conclusions, even if you have base them on someone else's initial work.
And further to Testify, always Testify!
Even if you make a mistake, pls save someone else from the same...

Beerz
Seth :p
 
In Designing Great Beers I was astounded that the hop measurements were given in grams with no indication of the alpha acid rating. I asked about this before on the forum but never received a satisfactory reply. This put me off a bit, though I can see this book gaining more relevance to me sooner rather than later.
PP, all the numbers in DGB are averages and statistics of place getters in competitions. in order to get a useful overview of things you sometimes needs to lose some details. I can't imagine they would be very useful stats if they went along these lines

"2.8% of 2nd round winners in the APA section used 40g of cascade (5.5%aa), 2.8% of 2nd round winners used 38g of cascade (5.4%aa), 2.8% of 2nd round winners used 38g cascade (5.4%aa).... etc etc"

there's just too much detail to gather the more useful piece of information that 80% of APAs used between 30-40g of cascade.

some of the time (heck, when you're learning id goes as far as saying MOST of the time) less is more. too much detail only clouds the message. it's not until after you understand the message that extra detail is going to be helpful.
 
there's just too much detail to gather the more useful piece of information that 80% of APAs used between 30-40g of cascade.

Not to mention the fact that most hop varieties do not vary that much in alpha acid percentage. Or put another way, you can easily look up typical values for a variety and assume that is about what the recipe had in mind. Any large deviations can than be weeded out (like NZ Saaz versus trad Saaz). A plus or minus couple of alpha acid units error is not likely to have a large influence on the beer. I've never read that book, but I'd agree that the best approach would be to give a target range of IBUs for the recipe, then mention that the prescribed hop quantities are guidelines that could be adjusted depending on the actual aa% of the hops you are using.
 
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