Do You Ever Question The Brewing Experts?

[PistolPatch]

Thanks for the posts today re the books. Great to hear matti doesn't recommend Noonan to beginners, I agree with Spills about people learning differently, thanks for the explanations on Designing Great beers Lucas and Steve and finally, great to see you here as well Les! (Wow! One sentence and I've acknowledged everyone!)

I wrote to Thirsty a few days back saying that, in hindsight, I wished I'd worded my first post better. It was a thread I started off the cuff after reading some stuff here on AHB which I can't remember. I do now, however, remember the motivation.

Firstly seeing as I unwittingly mentioned Jamil (someone I know nothing about) I'd like to say that since starting this post (and Thirsty knows that I didn't mean that Jamil was wrong or anything and that I was just asking a question and actually did honestly wonder, amongst many other things, if some people's palates were very advanced,) that I have since learned that Jamil constantly refers to the fact that the things he says work, work for him, on his system, you might find a different result on yours and may well have to tweak your process.

I like comments like that. From what I gather, he's a bit of an adventurer as well which I also like. From the two minutes of audio I have heard, I also really like the fact that he said he has actually tried doing two different boils. Anyway, I've now downloaded 8 of his podcasts - lol!

Tonight I remembered at least half the motivation for starting this thread must have been a thread somewhat like this one

Have a read of that and you'll see exactly what I mean about 'levels.' This poor guy asked a question about his first lager and there is no possible way that he could make sense of the replies. Tell me how this guy could possibly be less confused than he was at the time of his original post? Thankfully Ross and Stuster gave some practical advice but, by this time, the thread had digressed into liquid yeast starters, pitching calculators etc, etc. This thread is a classic example of 'mis-placed' information.

Way too much of that goes on.

On a side-note, Brewtus has bumped the Adventurous Brewers Wanted thread which I know some of you here have already contributed to and nearly all of you will be interested in. It's had a fickle start and could have been started a lot better in hindsight but hopefully some of us here can add a little more to it (testify!) and in a few months time, we can use the info to start a new thread of real value.

Like everyone has said here so far, 'Test for Yourself!' That thread has a few ideas to speed up the progress.

How nice would it be to get a group of brewers together whose advice we can really trust? Whilst this would be a long-term project it would have tremendous value for us.

Spot ya guys,
Pat

 

[Zwickel]

Hello Pat,

referring to:
"This poor guy asked a question about his first lager and there is no possible way that he could make sense of the replies. Tell me how this guy could possibly be less confused than he was at the time of his original post? Thankfully Ross and Stuster gave some practical advice but, by this time, the thread had digressed into liquid yeast starters, pitching calculators etc, etc. This thread is a classic example of 'mis-placed' information."

let me ask you some questions: would you prefer to talk to a baby in a silly baby language instead of a proper english?
or if someone is asking for the way, would you say: the way youre asking for is too complicated, better you go somewhere else?

I think, to reach ones goal, sometimes there are many ways , not only one.
In a forum like this, everyone may describe hes own way to come to that.
Thats what makes a forum very interesting and its not a tenet.

In a long and for many readers interesting thread, naturally youll find many different opinions. So far so good.
Why should one reduce the subject to a minimum? Do you know from start how skilled the questioner already is?
....and if everyone in a thread represents the same minimalized opinion, how boring would a forum be?

The questioner may pick out what ever he may put into practice.

thats just my 2cnt. and apologizes again for my poor english (but Im on the way to improve it, by reading this forum ).

Cheers :beer:

 

[matti]

We should always question the forum entries.
It would appropriate to stick to to the subject too, one i have a great problem with myself. NOT FUNNY HAHA

This is an incredible busy forum, and as so eloquently said earlier in the this particular thread, one has to sift the information and absorb what applies to ones own needs.

That maybe easier said then done.

Zwickel and pat and every one else who has loads of information, and I should include my self.

We should try to keep our fingers to these type of thread instead of confusing the beginner with loads of, sometimes, confusing and too advanced brewing teqniques.
Thas is a my $ worth if I say so myself

 

[redgums500]

CRUMBS !!! Just read the last 5 pages and wasn't sure if I was signed into a beer and brewing forum or some philanthripic ( bugger no spell check!) discussion pertaining to the morality of human thought over his actions ,to ones activity in human society, regardless of the demographic and sociographic influences throughout certain regions.

To me its a fun hobby and one that can be shared with family and friends, along with the occassional hangover.... No big deal


cheers

redgums

 

[jkeysers]

let me ask you some questions: would you prefer to talk to a baby in a silly baby language instead of a proper english?

Are you saying i'm a baby?!? haha. I kid, I kid.

When it comes to brewing, I guess I am. I know virtually nothing compared to some of the people around here. But compared to my non-brewing friends, I may as well be speaking another language when I talk about brewing. I guess it's all part of the process. Home brewing has a fairly long and fairly steep learning curve. And it would lose so many people that are starting out for that reason. This site is the only reason I kept at it, and now i'm starting to reap the rewards.

Edit: Very nervous to be posting in the AG section. I'm a long way off AG. The closest i've ever come is my Fresh Wort Kits. haha. I kinda feel like a 4th grader in high school.

 

[PistolPatch]

Very nervous to be posting in the AG section. I'm a long way off AG. The closest i've ever come is my Fresh Wort Kits. haha. I kinda feel like a 4th grader in high school.

Hey chicken, don't be worried about posting here. I probably should have put this in The Common Ground forum anyway as matti suggested.

Howdy Zwickel. Your English is great mate! I just had a re-read of that thread and notice that you were the one to bring up not necessarily needing to do a diacetyl rest. Good on you! This to me, is good advice for a person doing their first lager.

After re-reading that thread, I still think many of the posts are too advanced for a first lager. Starters* for example are a whole new world which chicken hasn't done (or myself for that matter.) I also realised though that there was a lot of good info there but I suppose that due to the nature of a forum, the information becomes very dis-jointed. I have been bewildered by this many times in the past.

It would be interesting to see if chicken could let us know if he found the thread bewildering or easy.

What I like, is when guys such as yourself, who know a subject write one comprehensive post. This makes it really easy. Funnily enough, I just found a great example of such a post here on yeast harvesting from a yeast cake. This one post is really well-written. I'm sure there are heaps more but trying to find them is very difficult sometimes.

Zwickel, I'd love to see someone such as yourself write some stuff in the Wiki or maybe write some guides to aspects of lagering. It would be truly great to see a lot more cohesive and comprehensive information in the one post or article.

:super:
Pat

 

[jkeysers]

It would be interesting to see if chicken could let us know if he found the thread bewildering or easy.

I found most peoples individual advice pretty easy to follow. It was the different ideas and opinions that made things confusing. But brewing is all about different ideas and ways of doing things I guess. For me, i'll probly just start with the simplest methods and tweak it as I go.

 

[Tangles]

As the saying goes "Opinions are just like bums - everyone has one!"

I agree though chicken, some advice is really easy to follow, some leaves me scratching my head and some plain goes right over the top. I just takes bits and pieces from everyone and have a dip.

 

[Maxt]

Advice is sometimes contextual. Advice that you hear when you are not ready for it (ie the benefit of a mash out and fly sparge when you are at the 'adding a hop bag to your kit ' stage, does not compute.

I heard a great quote about accepting advice once..and it basically boiled down to the fact that the best advice is timely..ie when you need it. 'Just in time', not 'just in case', so to speak.
So, new brewers being able to ask for help is invaluable. I know I have made every dumb mistake under the sun, and it is only through the helpful advice of brewers on sites like this, that have helped.

 

[Darren]

Often when I have questioned an expert in a field I have been wrong, but learned something.

cheers

Darren

 

[Trough Lolly]

---Sticks his head above the trench---

At the risk of being flamed for past posts, I honestly believe that brewing is only as complicated as you want it to be.

If you're happy to use a kit only - that's fine...
If you like to steep some grains and add a bit of hops - that's fine...
If you do partial or full mashes - that's fine too!

I've learned a bit about brewing since 1995 and I've always felt "in debt" to those in my local brewclub and brewing forums such as this, who spare me their time to explain things. It wasn't all that long ago when I wondered why people wasted their money on buying yeast and hops when all you need is in the Coopers kit!
I personally believe in helping others where I can when it comes to brewing and sure, I've been dead wrong on heaps of occasions but that doesn't stop me from asking more questions and answering a few along the way - we're not asking for directions on how to perform brain surgery here! My geek mode responses only occur because I wondered how things actually occurred and a related question is asked that may merit a more detailed response, eg what actually goes on down at the cell wall level when the yeast hydrolises the sugars we make available in the wort. It's a pretty amazing thing, but I digress...

Regardless of whether you are a "brewing expert" or not, the beauty of this hobby is that we all have very similar goals - to brew beer and enjoy the fruits of our labours with friends if there's enough to go around!

Cheers,
TL

 

[bugwan]

I saw this thread a few minutes after it was created. I was going to post, but frankly I thought there's so much opinion flying around in my head (or was that Koelsch?), I'd leave it.

Now that I've read some great posts, I thought I'd bring down the tone and post myself

Personally, I'm a fan of questioning the experts, as they're not all they're always cracked up to be. Experts aren't always deserving of their titles, some are thrust into their positions of influence by luck, others by aggressive self-marketing. I work in IT at a Stockbroker, and I've never met such a collection of self-obsessed individuals who think they are on experts everything, yet all they need to get their broking license is to sit a 1 hour exam...

Brewing is quite an interesting subject in this context - many industries (think finance, retail etc) can look to the most 'successful' (or biggest) in their field for guidance on how to be good. Most small banks want to be like NAB, right?. However, brewers never look to CUB or Lion Nathan for pointers, the good oil is with the little, passionate guys.

I think brewers by nature are an inquisitive lot, we question plenty. Especially, as our new American poster has pointed out, AHB posters are big proponents of BIAB and no-chill. HOWEVER! Most of us use a three vessel system, a march pump, a certain grain to liquid ratio, we mash, lauter, sparge, boil, keg, and drink. Maybe many of us aren't questioning enough? h34r:

 

[PistolPatch]

No way that you have brought the tone down bugwan. What a great post!

You made me think of some of the guys I knew here in WA 15 years ago who are now advisors to micro-breweries here. What a crack up!

There's two that come to mind in particular and they know nothing about brewing but talk well. I have no understanding of how they are where they are now.

It makes you wonder, if this is happening in the small breweries, what happens in the big breweries? I suspect everything is very mechanical and there is no room for an artisan (as Screwtop would say) to come along and say, 'Why don't we brew this beer?'

You have to seriously wonder about their 'experts' in market research as well. I brewed NRB's All Amarillo Pale Ale and after a wonderful response from all age groups of both sexes, asked my brother-in-law to keep a few bottles in his fridge and just pour them out without saying anything to the guests that often go to my sisters place. Most of them so far have, unprompted, said, "What's this beer? Bloody nice?" (They seriously love it no matter which way I brew it and I've done 5 more brews since!)

So why aren't the big breweries doing beers like that? Probably simply in-house politics.

Self-serving individuals get a long way in this society even when it makes no sense. Why would a service industry such as a bank or phone company let their customers stay on hold for at least 20 minutes? Why wouldn't a big brewery try putting out a great beer?

I could explain why but that would take me about 20,000 words!!! Bugwan, you've nailed anything that I could write when in one sentence when you talked of how a craft brewer, when wanting to brew a splendid beer, does not not look up to the commercial brewery.

You are spot on! That one comment alone will hopefully provoke much thought and not just about brewing beer.

Many thanks mate!
Pat

P.S. Can't tell you how hard I've found it to actually stop writing here bugwan - lol! Some of the other posts above have also stimulated me way too much but I need to go and put my brew in the fermenter! Top stuff!

 

[bugwan]

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Many thanks mate!
Pat

P.S. Can't tell you how hard I've found it to actually stop writing here bugwan - lol! Some of the other posts above have also stimulated me way too much but I need to go and put my brew in the fermenter! Top stuff!

Sorry to cut out all your post in my quote Pat, just wanted to blush in the glory of being honoured by a huge post from your good self. You're a credit to the site and the hobby. Keep the great threads rolling.

I've got another Koelsch to check on too...

Spot ya!

 

[jjeffrey]

That brings me to my next point: Recipes in BYO magazine. I have found these, after initial cautiousness, to be quite a good source of material to base a beer upon. However, and I'm sure a few of you could back me up here, Never take their information as gospel. Yes, they have internationally recognised beer authors creating material for them, and now the much-lauded Jamil, but they sometimes have serious errors in the proof-reading or fact-verification of the articles. I have emailed them about it several times and got no reply. They must be busy doing something else.

SO TRUE.

BYO have always provided good basis for style background- but it's always been an American slant, and by that I mean, a publication that tries to help Americans brew like Europeans using brew materials only found in the US. Even Jesus Jamil Zainasheff, whilst a legend in the American homebrewing scene and an extremely accoladed (semi) amateur brewer, is still as pompus and opinionated AS THE REST OF US about "how it should be done". I'm not sure that the wider-american audience counts to BYO- which is why I failed to take advantage of renewing my subscription despite the "special 2 issues for free" offer that I regularly received.

(JZ, if you are reading this, please forgive me- I really don't want to go to hell. I WILL REPENT!)

 

[tangent]

read some stuff, brew some beer, make up your own mind, keep it under 400 words

 

[PistolPatch]

Tangent!: What's this 400 words business? Go and stand in the corner!

Bugwan: I saw your post below. Now have my beer in fermenter and also have reduced the prior essay here to.... Thanks for your posts above mate. The well over four hundred word essay kept me amused last night though and I'm glad that you got a read

LOL
Pat

 

[bugwan]

Confucious say, anyone using words "machinations" or "motivations" after 11pm need to do morning edit.

Pat, put your wort in the fermenter already!

I'm off...
Cheers!