goatherder
Fancyman of Cornwood
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I believe wild yeasts can eat dextrins which are left behind by the Saccromyces fermentation. Brettanomyces for example will do this.
Do Crown Seals Need To Be Steralised?
- Thread starter stewills
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domonsura
Beer stuff maker
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I sanitise caps, always have.
Just seems to me that all surfaces you can expect to have contact with the beer should receive the same attention. Remember, we're aware that we aren't sterilising, just sanitising. In doing so we're just trying to knock down the population of undesirable organisms to a point where our yeasts have the upper hand.
Leaving one surface un-sanitised while sanitising the bottle to me seems to defeat the purpose - if you're not going to sanitise the caps, why bother to sanitise the bottles? or the fermenter? or anything else for that matter? Because experience at our level of things has taught us that it gives us a higher chance of better results.
Bottling in commercial environments in my opinion is not a suitable comparison, simply because the majority are food production environments where other attention has been shown to HACCP guidelines if for no other reason but to protect profit margins.......I have (and I'm sure that others have) seen exceptions to the rule, but that doesn't mean that we should be blanketly recommending taking shortcuts with sanitation.......
Just seems to me that all surfaces you can expect to have contact with the beer should receive the same attention. Remember, we're aware that we aren't sterilising, just sanitising. In doing so we're just trying to knock down the population of undesirable organisms to a point where our yeasts have the upper hand.
Leaving one surface un-sanitised while sanitising the bottle to me seems to defeat the purpose - if you're not going to sanitise the caps, why bother to sanitise the bottles? or the fermenter? or anything else for that matter? Because experience at our level of things has taught us that it gives us a higher chance of better results.
Bottling in commercial environments in my opinion is not a suitable comparison, simply because the majority are food production environments where other attention has been shown to HACCP guidelines if for no other reason but to protect profit margins.......I have (and I'm sure that others have) seen exceptions to the rule, but that doesn't mean that we should be blanketly recommending taking shortcuts with sanitation.......
Zwickel,
Wild yeast will chomp away to 1.000 or lower just like champaigne yeast. Plenty of nutrients and air in freshly primed beer!!
Clean caps out of the factory, no problems. Re-packaged caps or old stock around the home you are probably asking for trouble.
As stated before, the effort is minimal!!
cheers
darren
PS: You do freshly sanitise your fermenter prior to adding wort?
Wild yeast will chomp away to 1.000 or lower just like champaigne yeast. Plenty of nutrients and air in freshly primed beer!!
Clean caps out of the factory, no problems. Re-packaged caps or old stock around the home you are probably asking for trouble.
As stated before, the effort is minimal!!
cheers
darren
PS: You do freshly sanitise your fermenter prior to adding wort?
PostModern
Iron Wolf Brewery
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**WARNING** The following is anecdotal only and should not be included as evidence **WARNING**
I can't name the organisms, but I have seen some bottles in a batch go boom or gush to be followed with an infected flavour and others from the same batch that are clean and fine. Obviously the infection was in the bottle, not the whole batch.
I can't name the organisms, but I have seen some bottles in a batch go boom or gush to be followed with an infected flavour and others from the same batch that are clean and fine. Obviously the infection was in the bottle, not the whole batch.
For me, the bottom line is this- after bottling 10,000 bottles plus over 18 years without sanitising one cap and never a problem, somehow I doubt I`ll be changing anything. If things go wrong I`ll let you know but don`t hold your breath.
staggalee.
staggalee.
Zwickel
Keg Drainer
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Darren, we are turning around and around.
Ive said, the caps have to be dry and clean, then there is hardly any nasty germ on it.
....and no, I never sanitize anything of my gear, just clean it.
Made a few ordinary ones but only ever one infection- caused by skimming a Muntons long ago.
Unless....****, you don`t think all my beers have been infected for 18 years and I didn`t know? :huh:
Hhmm....might have to look at sanitising those caps...
staggalee.
A properly washed surface with agitation and warm water will kill or remove almost all the germs. I have seen many homebrewers (generally entry level brewers) fill and soak fermenters etc and expect that to do the job. Agitation and scrubbing (with out scratching) is vital and will probably do for 99.9% of the time. For the other .1% i use a no rinse sanitiser for safety.
SJW
As you must brew, so you must drink
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I am amazed that anyone would go to all the trouble and expense of doing a brew, AG or any other, and not sanatise your caps (if you are bottling) Thats just crazy talk. You would or should have a jug of Iodophor or similar made up to sanatise the bottoles and bottle filler why not use it just to be sure? I am not micro biological engineer :blink: but when I used to bottle I am sure I never got and infection from a cap....even if it was possible.
But it makes for a great arrgument though.
Steve
But it makes for a great arrgument though.
Steve
Thirsty Boy
ICB - tight shorts and poor attitude. **** yeah!
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I just cant understand the fuss about sanitising them - as a couple of people have said, it takes a total of about 3 seconds.
pour lids into bowl - pour sanitiser into bowl. done.
For the difference between assuming and knowing that your lids are at least as sanitary as the rest of your gear, I hardly see that as too high a price in effort to make. It just seems like an area where something could go wrong, that is so damn easy to fix.
Zwickel - your advice runs counter to that of the manufacturers of a few different sanitisers (sure they have a vested interest in selling you some) but their advice with a no rinse sanitiser is to work with wet surfaces - if the surface is wet with sanitiser, then it is as sanitary as it can get. Sanitisers that need to be rinsed off are pointless anyway, and they are the only ones where your clean and dry is better than wet theory holds true.
What germs am I guarding against... don't know, don't care. Lets just say any of them. from yeast floating around on dust particles to the skin cell that falls off my finger while I am fishing around in a bowl for the cap
Oh and the commercial breweries not using sanitised caps - wouldn't most of them be using a pasteurizer after bottling anyway? And as for smaller operations who don't pasteurize - well, a number of the bottling machines I have seen and or studied, have a wee bath that the lids soak in before being dragged out by a magnet and fed to the capping point - I believe that little bath contains sanitiser. So at the very least "some" commercial breweries believe its worth the 10seconds it must take them to fill up that little bath with sanitiser before they dump in the caps.
Once again its one of those things where I think its better to play for saftey. Better to sanitise when you don't need to, than to not sanitise when you do. The worst it can possibly be if you do it, is a minuscule waste of effort - better that than a tragic waste of beer.
pour lids into bowl - pour sanitiser into bowl. done.
For the difference between assuming and knowing that your lids are at least as sanitary as the rest of your gear, I hardly see that as too high a price in effort to make. It just seems like an area where something could go wrong, that is so damn easy to fix.
Zwickel - your advice runs counter to that of the manufacturers of a few different sanitisers (sure they have a vested interest in selling you some) but their advice with a no rinse sanitiser is to work with wet surfaces - if the surface is wet with sanitiser, then it is as sanitary as it can get. Sanitisers that need to be rinsed off are pointless anyway, and they are the only ones where your clean and dry is better than wet theory holds true.
What germs am I guarding against... don't know, don't care. Lets just say any of them. from yeast floating around on dust particles to the skin cell that falls off my finger while I am fishing around in a bowl for the cap
Oh and the commercial breweries not using sanitised caps - wouldn't most of them be using a pasteurizer after bottling anyway? And as for smaller operations who don't pasteurize - well, a number of the bottling machines I have seen and or studied, have a wee bath that the lids soak in before being dragged out by a magnet and fed to the capping point - I believe that little bath contains sanitiser. So at the very least "some" commercial breweries believe its worth the 10seconds it must take them to fill up that little bath with sanitiser before they dump in the caps.
Once again its one of those things where I think its better to play for saftey. Better to sanitise when you don't need to, than to not sanitise when you do. The worst it can possibly be if you do it, is a minuscule waste of effort - better that than a tragic waste of beer.
If you have really done that many bottles and claim to have only one batch infected thats ~1/500. I reckon you cant taste or dont care whether it is infected
<_< cheers
Darren
drtomc
Fermentationist
I had a bunch of lids go rusty. Not inside where the beer is [potentially] in contact, but it did put me off wetting them.
T.
Tony
Quality over Quantity
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For me, the bottom line is this- after bottling 10,000 bottles plus over 18 years without sanitising one cap and never a problem, somehow I doubt I`ll be changing anything. If things go wrong I`ll let you know but don`t hold your breath.
+1 but less bottles and time that stagga.
keep them in a clean plastic bag, sealed up and free of dirt and dust ect and they will be fine.
If your getting infections from your new bottle caps you have real REAL major problems!
cheers
If you have really done that many bottles and claim to have only one batch infected thats ~1/500. I reckon you cant taste or dont care whether it is infected
cheers
Darren
LOL....like I give 2 bob for what you reckon. You`re talking **** :icon_cheers:
staggalee.
HoppingMad
Ein Stein
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Here's the text I was referring to. Not microbiology but common sense from someone who has been a brewing columnist for 11 years.
Ashton Lewis, Columnist for Brew Your Own Magazine writes in his book "Home Brewer's Answer Book":
Q. Do you have to sanitize bottle caps before using them?
A. Many brewers feel the need to boil their caps to sanitize them before bottling. In my opinion, this step is overly cautious if you are using clean caps that come from a plastic bag. Commercial brewers do not sanitize caps and rely on a clean supply of clean caps to mitigate the potential of contaminating beer with stuff from the cap. Some crowns have liners in them that scavenge oxygen; moisture activates the substance in the liner. If you use this type of crown, you do not want to get it wet before use, as moisture will render the special liner useless.
Nuff said. Now leave poor Zwickel alone. He was agreeing with me (probably has read the same sensible stuff as I have)! Reckon it's time for a poll on this, only way we're going to resolve it!
Hopper.
Ashton Lewis, Columnist for Brew Your Own Magazine writes in his book "Home Brewer's Answer Book":
Q. Do you have to sanitize bottle caps before using them?
A. Many brewers feel the need to boil their caps to sanitize them before bottling. In my opinion, this step is overly cautious if you are using clean caps that come from a plastic bag. Commercial brewers do not sanitize caps and rely on a clean supply of clean caps to mitigate the potential of contaminating beer with stuff from the cap. Some crowns have liners in them that scavenge oxygen; moisture activates the substance in the liner. If you use this type of crown, you do not want to get it wet before use, as moisture will render the special liner useless.
Nuff said. Now leave poor Zwickel alone. He was agreeing with me (probably has read the same sensible stuff as I have)! Reckon it's time for a poll on this, only way we're going to resolve it!
Hopper.
