Do Crown Seals Need To Be Steralised?

[drtomc]

Question for the no-sanitisers. Do you sanitise the inside of your bottles? If so, why are you happy with 99% sanitised containiers?

Good questions. First, the bacteria are on the lid, and they don't fly or crawl by themselves. So, if I ensure (by reasonably careful handling) that the beer in the bottle doesn't come into contact with the lid, it is unlikely to cause an infection. Now inevitably, between bottling and drinking, sometimes beer does come into contact with the lid, but usually not before the yeast in the bottle have had a good crack at the priming sugar, so the risk there is low.

The main risk, I guess, if from bacteria that can digest the ogliosaccharides (short chains of sugars) that the yeast cannot. I have had bottles explode, so I can't rule out the theory, but I'd back that I hadn't cleaned the bottles well enough in the first place - a much more likely scenario since I salvage most of my bottles from cafe/restaurant recycling bins.

T.

 

[brendo]

Given that I usually have some no rinse around from sanitising the bottles, I reckon the extra few minutes to soak my bottle caps in a no rinse bath is well worth the time for limiting yet another source of possible infection.

For me it comes down to this - do i (potentially) waste an extra five minutes to sanitise my caps - or do I run the risk of several hours of work and weeks of fermenting going down the drain to save five minutes?

Paranoid or not - it is pretty much a no brainer for me - sanitising them can't hurt.

Just my 2 cents worth...

Brendo

 

[staggalee]

Yes

no.

staggalee.

 

[HoppingMad]

Question for the no-sanitisers. Do you sanitise the inside of your bottles? If so, why are you happy with 99% sanitised containiers? I haven't been inside a lid making plant, nor seen how they're packed, but I doubt they're sanitary.

Yup, sanitise my bottles thoroughly. Nope, still consider my bottles 100% sanitary with a cap from the bag.

I would actually think twice at boiling caps - that could actually degrade the seals. i.e next time you pop open a bottle - no fizz.

Also figure that water in the lids (unless dried properly) can be a magnet for crud, priming sugar and the like while bottling. So in my belief a clean, dry cap from a bag straight onto a clean bottle is the best and safest option. Besides, if it's a food grade item, it should be sanitary or it wouldn't be allowed to leave the factory. Rinsing then drying each cap? Too much handling in my book and you're making more room for infection simply by laying your hands all over them, moving them about and rinsing and drying them.

As mentioned before, the reading I've done suggests that Commercial brewers seem happy to trust the cap makers, so why shouldn't I?

Plus when you consider how sore your arms get from rinsing and capping bottles, and the info on hand says you don't need to - why would you bother really? To those with the energy left after a double batch to do the caps - I salute you, but I won't be signing up.

Hopper

 

[Stuster]

no.

Yes. :icon_chickcheers:

All caps into a sieve. Sieve into sink of sanitiser (which is there for the whole process). Leave until I need them. Shake a couple of times. Use. Is that too hard? :unsure:

(Sure there's water in there, but it's no-rinse sanitiser, not going to be causing any infections, and at the most a couple of drops in a bottle so no taste issues.)

 

[staggalee]

Yes. :icon_chickcheers:

All caps into a sieve. Sieve into sink of sanitiser (which is there for the whole process). Leave until I need them. Shake a couple of times. Use. Is that too hard? :unsure:

Not a point of being too hard.... more a point of unneccesery. {as evidenced by the thousands, yes thousands, of bottles I`ve capped with caps straight from packet with no probs.

staggalee.

 

[Zwickel]

Im just wondering what type of germ youre aiming to kill by sanitising the caps.
There is hardly any germ that can live under CO2 and alcohol environments. The most of nasty germs cannot live without oxygen.....and anyway, in a finished beer is almost no nutrition for any germ.
Im presupposing the beer has already finished the fermenting process at the time when get capped.

So what for should be the sanitising process?

 

[geoffi]

I don't bother sanitising caps. I just try to keep them clean and dry. If I drop one on the floor I'll give it a squirt of iodophor.

I used to carefully sanitise bottles. Gave that up a while ago. Now I just make sure they are clean. A couple of good rinses after use and drain dry does the trick. Any that look a bit grotty get a swish with a bottle brush and another rinse. I haven't had any infections from this slack approach afaik.

 

[geoffi]

Im just wondering what type of germ youre aiming to kill by sanitising the caps.
There is hardly any germ that can live under CO2 and alcohol environments. The most of nasty germs cannot live without oxygen.....and anyway, in a finished beer is almost no nutrition for any germ.
Im presupposing the beer has already finished the fermenting process at the time when get capped.

So what for should be the sanitising process?

Eine gute Frage.

Beer is a pretty poor habitat for nasties that might inhabit bottles and caps.

As long as you're keeping things clean, you have won 99% of the battle, IMHO. The other 1% is optional.

 

[buttersd70]

personally, I sanatise most of the time in no rinse, but only cos I already have some made up and ready to go. It's really more of a habit for me, really. The fact of the matter is, as zwickel has said, most nasties dont like alcohol and co2. There have been a few times where I have not sanatized, particularly in cases where I have bottled from keg for going out, intending to consume within 24 hours, but have ended up with extras that have sometimes sat for several weeks, with no ill effects.
Charlie talley, in his basicbrewing interview, concedes that cleaning is much more necessary than sanatising, and that sanitising is really only an "insurance policy that your cleaning is up to scratch" (his words, not mine). Makes sense, when you think about it. But, when you compare risk vs reward, particularly if bottling a full batch, why not take the extra 60 seconds out of your life to no rinse the caps? I'm a tight *******, but not that tight.
Just my 2c.

 

[staggalee]

Well, looks like another conundrum put to rest........ sanitising caps is needless.
Altho I would be interested in any replies to Zwickel`s input to support their case.

staggalee.

 

[Zwickel]

Im believing that a clean and dry surface carries less nasties than a freshly sanitised one.

In hospitals over here they do not disinfect any surface anymore. They found out that intensive use of sanitiser leads just to the opposite effect.
Any dry and clean, Im emphasizing clean, surface carries hardly any nasty germs.

just my two cent

 

[Darren]

Interesting Zwickel,

but I think that you are over simplifying the situation in a hospital 8). My experience says that most hospital CLEANERS are also very good SANITISERS (just cant put them in your beer 8>). Also, I bet there is a hell-of-a-lot of sanitising going on in rooms with MRSA and VRE in Germany.

I do agree that not sanitising beer caps is probably ok, UNLESS they have been sitting in the back shed for 3 months getting covered in dust (and wild yeast).

For the three seconds it takes to sanitise a batch of lids, I can't see why you would not do it!!

cheers

Darren

 

[Back Yard Brewer]

Im just wondering what type of germ youre aiming to kill by sanitising the caps.
There is hardly any germ that can live under CO2 and alcohol environments. The most of nasty germs cannot live without oxygen.....and anyway, in a finished beer is almost no nutrition for any germ.
Im presupposing the beer has already finished the fermenting process at the time when get capped.

So what for should be the sanitising process?

I would have to agree. We do a lot of tirage at work and I can tell you first hand that a box is opened be it started or new and the caps just thrown into the capper. If any caps are left at the end they are either left in the hopper or put back into the box. Not so much as a glimpse of sanitiser.

Yes Darren it may only take a few minutes to sanitise but its just one job I can't be buggered doing. By all means sanitise but me for one I don't, fill the bottle and bang on the lid. No problems over the last 5yrs or so.

BYB

 

[Zwickel]

but I think that you are over simplifying the situation in a hospital 8).

no Darren, not at all, Im only working in a hospital since Ive finished school. We do not talk about MRSA or things like that, just about the number of germs per square cm on a dry and clean surface. I repeat again, I think that you have more germs at the surface after you have freshly sanitized it than if you kept it clean and dry.
If you are thinking that after sanitizing the surfaces would be free of any germs, then you are very wrong.

btw. just tell me by name which germs you are fighting against.

For the three seconds it takes to sanitise a batch of lids, I can't see why you would not do it!!

Darren, I do not know any sanitiser that is able to do its work within three seconds.

okay, if you need to calm down your conscience, then do it.

we are just arguing about peanuts, each to theire own.

 

[daemon]

I don't sanitise new caps, but I do if I'm reusing lids from the PET bottles. Reading through this thread and it's making me think about it, I've already got the no-rinse made up anyway! The risk is probably very low, but it also means one less thing to worry about if there are problems.

 

[kook]

I sanitise my lids - but only because I've seen how some wholesalers handle them when repackaging for homebrew retailers.

The commercial breweries receiving their lids probably buy them in 1000's bulk from the manufacturer, not from a HBS.

I agree though - if you know your lids are from a clean source, there is probably little to worry about.

 

[microbe]

personally, I sanatise most of the time in no rinse, but only cos I already have some made up and ready to go. It's really more of a habit for me, really. ~snip~

Ditto

microbe

 

[Darren]

Zwickel,

I have been a microbiologist for the last 20+ years and assisted in many surgical procedures. I assure you that cleaning is just the first stage of sanitation. The organisms that you are referring to in a hospital environment are generally water borne and NOT beer spoilage "germs". If "you" do not talk about MSRA or VRE I hope your infection control people do.

The "germ" we are removing from a bottle cap would be acetobacter and/or Saccromyces sp (wild yeast) that found its way onto the cap possibly after being "packed" into their little bags in a HB shop (right next to the grain mill) or those lids sitting in half open bags for months between brews in the back shed.

The "three seconds" refers to: Add water and sanitiser to "beaker". Pour in lids. Bottle as usual. Couldn't be easier!!

cheers

Darren

PS: Peanuts we are talking about indeed, but $5 says you have a wet fermenter when you drain your boiler!!

 

[Zwickel]

Darren, nice to talk to a microbiologist, so I do not need to explain many facts.

once again, I do not talk about hospital specific germs, we just talk about germs on a surface.

As you know, Acetobacter is an aerobier, means cannot live without oxygen, so what?
wild yeast has nothing to grow at, since there is no nutrition in the beer anymore.

so what else is dangerous to the beer?