Decoction Questions

[dreadhead]

Hi, looking at getting into AG brewing in the near future, and have been doing tonnes of research both on this forum and externally. However, just the sheer number of search results has left me without a definitive answer to all of my questions in a single post, thought my eyes were going to explode.

1. From what I understand, part of the benefit of doing a decoction mash is to allow the formation of melanoidins from maillard reactions which give the typical rich malt profile of European style beers. However, is there a great discernible difference between a beer brewed with a single infusion mash with the addition of melanoidin malt and a decoction mash? As I am big fan of German style beers and Czech Pils I would eventually like to get as close as possible to style without unnecessary hassles.

2. Has anybody produced a top notch German or Czech Pils using a single infusion mash that is of comparable standard to commercial European brands?

3. Does James Squire Pils undergo a decoction mash?

4. Will a multi step infusion mash produce similar results to a decoction? and which method would be the easiest to accomplish with an AG kit consisting of 36L mash/lauter tun, 25 L boiler and immersion heater? looking at making batches around 20L.

Sorry about all the questions, but being from a science background (obviously not chemistry) I like to get stuck into all the technical stuff, and like to have my theory up to scratch before attempting it practically, just to minimise costs from initial mistakes. Cheers guys.

 

[mika]

1./ Debateable
2./ Sure, 1000 Monkeys hitting random keys on a typewriter... And also comes down to percieved taste which is different for every one, so ultimately...Debateable
3./ Doubt it, someone may correct me but for the most part most commerical brew systems don't have the facilities to decoction mash and the added cost on a commercial basis generally makes it unviable.
4./ Debateable

It's really a personal call, I want to try a decoction mash just to personally experience the 'difference' if there is any. Most people will quote that the 'level of malt modification' makes a decoction unecessary. Other people will say 'But you can't get the flavour without doing a Decoction mash' a smaller part will say 'You need to order in undermodified Morovian Malt if you want to do a decoction' while some other people say 'I like Tooheys Extra Dry for the smooth unoffensive taste'....but we tend to stay away from those people <_<

Brewer here in WA makes award winning lagers with a single infusion mash, other people make award winning lagers with Multi-step infusion rests.
Try it and let us know your experiences.

 

[kabooby]

You can still produce a great beer with single infusions. If you are just getting into AG try and nail the single infusion first. When you start to hit your targets on a regular basis then look at doing infusions and decoctions.

I think you need to use undermodified Morovian Malt to get the most out of a decoction.

Kabooby :icon_cheers:

 

[Jazzafish]

You won't regret all grain brewing. But your wife and friends may get the shits with you for talking about nothing other than brewing! Unless they do it too!!!

1)Yes. Decoctions taste like decoctions. Single infused brews with melanoidin malt will taste like single infused beers with added melanoidin malt. If brewed well, they will both be good beers. General argument is if you want a genuine tasting german beer than fork out for less modified german malt, hops and yeast. Brew a traditional decoction/ That is not saying you won't get a great beer using local ingredients via a single infused mash. I follow this prophecy: For brewing beer styles of a region use the ingredients grown in the region and follow their procedures. Also, decoctions were used before the invention of the thermometer. Some brewers stuck to tradition, others looked at what enzimes they were creating to convert their starches... even if there is more baggage that comes with a decoction.

2)Yes, you just ask the brewers. I believe great examples of the style have been brewed both ways. Also, find me a beer judge that can blindly taste and pick the difference between them. I have never met a judge who could taste a beer and tell me the exact recipe and origin and batch number of the malt. Though some have come close.

3)No, I believe they have a mash tun with a steam jacket for a stepped mash. Eg: mash in for protien rest (45-50*C) and hold for a bit. Turn on steam jackets and raise to saccarification conversion (65-69*C) and hold for a bit. Turn on steam jackets and raise to mash out/sparge temp (78*C). pump to the lauter tun and sparge...repeat. Most commercials work this way.

4)I honestly can't say based on my home brewing experience. I have never nailed a planned decoction and have always had to add hot or cold water to meet my desired temp. However I have rarely fucked up a single infusion mash. But when I have fallen too short of a target temp I have done a decoction to cover my ass.

For simplicity when doing your first few AG brews, I suggest you do a single infusion mashes. I also suggest you choose well modified malt that will happily convert for you. Download promash/beersmith and use it to calculate all your water temps. Heating the water in your mash tun will eliminate the need to calculate thermal mass and all that crap. Just add your grain slowly and stir the crap out of it before resting. If your strike temp is way cold then as a last resort pull a decoction.

When you nail single infused mashes, then have a bit of fun with decoctions and decide if the extra effort is worth it for yourself. Make sure you post your results too!

 

[clarkey7]

Dreadhead,

On the equipment side...I think you need a bigger boiler if you want 20L final batch size unless you brew a higher gravity wort and add water to make up to 20L.

Eg. I do 20-22L batches in my 32L pot. The preboil volume is around 26L for most of my brews... Any bigger in my 32L pot and it gets uncomfortably close to boiling over.

Good luck with AG.

PB :icon_chickcheers:

 

[///]

1. From what I understand, part of the benefit of doing a decoction mash is to allow the formation of melanoidins from maillard reactions which give the typical rich malt profile of European style beers.

Not really... the decoction is to enable the break down of the high protein 'steelie' grains. Germans (i say that loosely) were known for poor quality high nitrogen malt years ago as they never sorted feed to brewing malt as the Brits did. Decoction is needed to yield reasonable extract values in the brew house. Nothing to do with Mailard reactions of which most take place in the kilning section of the malting process (ales 100c and Lagers 70c hence the flavour difference)

However, is there a great discernible difference between a beer brewed with a single infusion mash with the addition of melanoidin malt and a decoction mash? As I am big fan of German style beers and Czech Pils I would eventually like to get as close as possible to style without unnecessary hassles.

IMHO- most confuse malt profile with DMS profile in German Pils and munich not melanoidin is a better taste attributer... Aim for lots of attempts but to little return. Aussie malts are not known for pre-DMS precursors and are loath to produce them. Same for yeasts with enough Diacetyl as some of the germans and czechs will deliver.... bang in lots of munich.

2. Has anybody produced a top notch German or Czech Pils using a single infusion mash that is of comparable standard to commercial European brands?

From most Aussie Malts I doubt it. Decocting (and wasting time) with Aussie malts that are low in protein/nitorgen and well converted would yeild a crap beer with poor foam. Do not decoct converted malts.

3. Does James Squire Pils undergo a decoction mash?

Nup.

4. Will a multi step infusion mash produce similar results to a decoction? and which method would be the easiest to accomplish with an AG kit consisting of 36L mash/lauter tun, 25 L boiler and immersion heater? looking at making batches around 20L.

Nup.

Sorry about all the questions, but being from a science background (obviously not chemistry) I like to get stuck into all the technical stuff, and like to have my theory up to scratch before attempting it practically, just to minimise costs from initial mistakes. Cheers guys.
[/quote]

Enjoy the Readings from the IBD. Each at E38 each, will return there weight in gold. Or Bronze, if I could win anything but at the AiBA ;p

BY the way. Congrats on the venture and enjoy the ride. Where you tried to begin is not where you end up!

 

[Steve Lacey]

To echo others, yes, get some infusions under your belt first. But in time give decoctions a go with styles that benefit most from them: pilseners, Bock and other malty lagers, perhaps weizen. It is for flavour development rather than anything to do with modification. There is certainly a strong school of thought that the favours can be adequately reproduced by the use of melanoidin malt rather than decoction. But don't expect consensus on that. You will just have to try it both ways and decide for yourself.

 

[Tony]

I dont think i could say any more that what they said, or say it any better than they said so...............

What they said

:icon_cheers:

cheers