Crap Cider

[Pickaxe]

@ Deep end - thats because a lot of companies flavour shit wine and sell it as Cider or Ginger Beer.

Adults aren't built to ingest lactose - thats what weening is about. Though i still don't mind locking on a tit or two when i get the chance...

 

[Chookers]

Thanks to everyone for your responses, its amazing how much you all know and how fast these responses are comming in. This is truely an awesome forum.. :super:

so this pasteurization thing is on carbed bottles.. kill the yeast keep the fizz.. sounds crazy.

My favourite store bought cider at the moment is Dirty Granny.. Im working my way through each brand, but I stalled on that one because I liked it so much.. might stop my cider search.

I enjoy Ginger Beer, but my experience with them has always been too dry and too alcoholic, and the store bought are all lolly water and im not talking about the soft drink kind.

I suppose I could carb up one bottle and pasteurize it.. Do you use glass or PET?

 

[JDW81]

I guess, a (hopefully not so) stupid question would be whether people use hops? Or am I starting to talk about a whole different kettle here?

Not so stupid really.

Many ciders have a certain level of tannin that you can taste. This comes (as far as I know) from the apples traditionally used in cider (drink a proper UK cider and it is a very different beast to most of the commercial versions available). Cider apples are very different to table apples, and have a much lower level of sweetness. Cider can also be made with crab apples, which again taste very different to your good old granny smith. This fruit imparts a level of bitterness/astringency/tannin mouth feel (can't quite think of the right word, but I'm sure you catch my drift) that you generally can't achieve with store bought apple juice or a cider kit.

To counter that there are some things you can add to try to emulate this character, and (flame suit on) hops are one of them. I've made cider with a small amount of cascade hops and it adds a very subtle bitterness that is reminiscent of what you might expect from a good UK cider. I usually add them to a small volume of water with some sugar and spices and boil for a bit. I've also heard of people using strong green tea to add tannins, but I've never tried this one yet.


JD.

 

[benen]

One of my mates got me into wanting to homebrew when I tried one of his ciders. No sweeteners added. Just a few modifications to a kit I believe and while it wasn't as crisp and clean as a Magners or Bulmers I really enjoyed it and didn't find it too dry to my taste at all. I'm just hoping my first batch comes out remotely similar after sitting in the bottles for a while. I've tried cheap cider, both apple and pear from the shop and they just taste like slightly alcoholic cordial to me. Criminal to even call it cider

 

[Fossey]

Thanks to everyone for your responses, its amazing how much you all know and how fast these responses are comming in. This is truely an awesome forum.. :super:

so this pasteurization thing is on carbed bottles.. kill the yeast keep the fizz.. sounds crazy.

My favourite store bought cider at the moment is Dirty Granny.. Im working my way through each brand, but I stalled on that one because I liked it so much.. might stop my cider search.

I enjoy Ginger Beer, but my experience with them has always been too dry and too alcoholic, and the store bought are all lolly water and im not talking about the soft drink kind.

I suppose I could carb up one bottle and pasteurize it.. Do you use glass or PET?

Pasteurising is for carbonated sweet ciders. A dry cider natural ferments out, ie - the yeast have nothing left to eat. They are easily carbonated in the bottle the same way as a beer, without needing to pasteurise.

Try the range of ciders from Westons. More along the lines of what you'll be able to make at home. Old Rosie Scrumpy is a bit of a favourite for me and nothing like the usual range available.

 

[Chookers]

So what exactly do I have to do to pasteurize a bottle of cider... I have read it before on these forums but Im now having trouble locating the exact thread where I read it.

I am going to carb two bottles one glass and one PET so I can monitor the pressure, Im thinking I will add some more Apple Juice in this experiment.. and possibly some sugar to get it to the right sg... I dont know what it is at the moment, but I will check it tomorrow.

 

[Fossey]

I wait until the test bottle is really hard then put the batch into the dishwasher.
I choose the dishwasher setting with the hottest temp and run the cycle. My dishwasher claims its intensive cycle is 70 deg (gets up to about 40-50 when full of bottled cider) and runs for 2hrs 15 mins.
The lower the temp, the longer you have to run it for.

Otherwise... carefully...
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/easy-stove-top-pasteurizing-pics-193295/

 

[JDW81]

(gets up to about 40-50 when full of bottled cider) and runs for 2hrs 15 mins.

I'd be very careful with only getting to those temps. While it will probably knock off most of the yeast running for that long, I'd be trying to get it a bit higher just to be on the safe side. I'd be aiming for a minimum of 70. The article you linked suggests 190 fahrenheit which ~87 celsius. If you can pasteurise at those temps you can be sure it has worked.

My 2c.

JD

 

[Fossey]

I'd be very careful with only getting to those temps. While it will probably knock off most of the yeast running for that long, I'd be trying to get it a bit higher just to be on the safe side. I'd be aiming for a minimum of 70. The article you linked suggests 190 fahrenheit which ~87 celsius. If you can pasteurise at those temps you can be sure it has worked.

My 2c.

JD

Agreed but I have over 150 x 500mL bottles of homebrew cider that were pasteurised this way - one batch stopped at about 1030 gravity, a real freight train fermentation too - that have been stopped.

Having said that, my temps were taken with a cheap digital thermometer with a wired probe going into the dishwasher.

Once finished, the bottles were still too hot to touch even half an hour or so after the cycle finished. Next time I'll open a bottle as the cycle finishes and test the temp of the cider inside.

 

[MelbourneDave]

Next time I'll open a bottle as the cycle finishes and test the temp of the cider inside.

Be a little careful here. I'm not positive it will apply here but doesn't heat make pressure? I immediately thought of those pics you see of people's faces (or lack of) after they opened their cars radiator cap whilst still hot.

 

[Deep End]

I hear you with that theory. However, pasturization temps are significantly lower than that of the coolant/water in your radiator. Radiators get up in the 200's under way more pressure than what would be in a bottle.

I assume the same laws of physics apply to most things, but the variables are different here. Radiators are under the range of 10 to 20 lbs of pressure (from memory) depending on the model of car, and thats to keep it from boiling at waters normal boiling temp. Home brew would be lucky to get half of that pressure and my mind makes me think that the fact its CO2 providing the pressure, as opposed to heat and steam, that it would work a little differently.

And again like I said the temps required for pasturization are far less than that in a radiator. Good point though.

Thats just my thoughts on the topic anyway, I could well be wrong, wouldn't be the first time.

 

[Fossey]

I promise to be careful - it is after all, for a good cause!!!

 

[Airgead]

I hear you with that theory. However, pasturization temps are significantly lower than that of the coolant/water in your radiator. Radiators get up in the 200's under way more pressure than what would be in a bottle.

I assume the same laws of physics apply to most things, but the variables are different here. Radiators are under the range of 10 to 20 lbs of pressure (from memory) depending on the model of car, and thats to keep it from boiling at waters normal boiling temp. Home brew would be lucky to get half of that pressure and my mind makes me think that the fact its CO2 providing the pressure, as opposed to heat and steam, that it would work a little differently.

And again like I said the temps required for pasturization are far less than that in a radiator. Good point though.

Thats just my thoughts on the topic anyway, I could well be wrong, wouldn't be the first time.

Yeah... but radiators aren't made of glass and you don't usually pick them up and hold them near your face when hot and under pressure...

A dishwasher is not a pasturiser. Not even close. The temp inside might be a nominal 70 (which is too low for pasturisation anyway) but it won't be constant over the whole volume. There will be hot spots and cool spots. It won't reliably kill off all the yeast.

You can give it a go. I won't be though.

Cheers
Dave

 

[Deep End]

I wasn't saying it was a good idea, I was just saying its not exactly the same as a radiator. I wont be pasturising anything with that method; a: I dont have the luxury of a dishwasher, and b: Luckily for me I like my cider the way nature makes it; nice and dry. I imagine the safest way would be to put your bottles in a large vessel of water and bring it up to 80, maintain that temp for x amount of time and then go from there. Either way it is in itself a concept I doubt I shall ever have to adopt so my face is safe for now.

 

[Deep End]

Also, I'm not in the habit of holding anything hot and/or pressurised near my face or anything else I value, its a curse I must live with but I endure!

I'm sure its a curse many more suffer as well

And now I have to keep dribbling text, because the editor wont let me add any more to my previous post, and apparently one sentence creates a "your post is too short" error, so please for give the last two paragraphs of invariably useless dribble, I just need some more words to keep the matrix happy and willing to publish my thoughts.

That should do it I think!

 

[Chookers]

I'll post updates when I've carbed and pasteurized a bottle or two.. see how it goes.

 

[Greg.L]

70c is easily warm enough to pasteurize cider. You only need a few minutes at that temperature. The alcohol makes a big difference. Dishwashers do a good job.

 

[Chookers]

gonna have to tip the lot out. I just tasted some and it tastes horrible, one just tastes like water with barely any hint of alcohol in it and a weak flavour which I cant name.. piss is the only word that comes to mind..

Im pretty dissapointed in this.. I sorry I couldnt fix it and share my results. Im just going to enjoy my store bought cider and forget about making my own.

 

[Airgead]

Don't give up. Cider is easy. You just have to know what you are aiming for and take some deliberate steps to get there. Start with small batches and experiment.

Cider is a very broad thing... what sort of cider are you looking at making?

Cheers
Dave

 

[Fossey]

Which store bought cider are you comparing yours to? There are so many more processes done commercially than a homebrewer would even consider. Some store boughts are called cider but are nothing more than sparkling cordial diluted with a stripped down fermented apple fluid loaded with preservatives.
Don't lose hope and try and find some traditional style ciders to compare to.
As long as you have sanitised gear, apple juice, yeast and a whole lot of patience - you really can't go wrong... Aging brings many rewards too.
And don't chuck it - bottle it, put it in a cupboard and forget about it for 6 months then try it...