Coopers Longneck pressure rating? Carb level for hard ginger beer?

[Nick the Knife]

Morning all,

I've googled the heck out of this but just wanted to check here as well;

1. Need to bottle prime a batch of hard ginger beer ASAP - it's been in fermenter nearly 3 weeks now (alas couldnt do at 2 weeks due to car issues and needed artifical sweeter to backsweeten from town - long story but it's partially in the GB recipe thread if interested) - from reading up it seems recommended to go with lower end Fruit Lambic - German Wheat type carbonation levels - which is 3 to 4.5 vol. I was leaning towards 3.5 vol. Thoughts?

Will be bulk priming with white sugar. FG was 1.012 at the 2 week mark - which was fully fermented IMHO as done using generic kit yeasts made into a starter. So with the extra week held steady at 18c (was in brew fridge entire ferment) I am sure this is completed primary ferment.

2. 99% of my bottles are Coopers Glass longneck crown seal bottles. As most would know they're pretty heavy as Coopers bottle condition in them from the brewery. I cannot find any info on what the max pressure rating for these bottles is - any ideas?
Read leads me to believe that standard thin walled bottles are generally pressure rated for 4 vol - so I'd expect these to be significantly above that but below champers bottles. Which is all to say 3.5 -4vol in the Coopers bottles should be no issue?

Thanks in advance as I need to get this bottled ASAP.

 

[akx]

I personally wouldn't. Risk of exploding glass is not worth it. I use champagne bottles for that level of carbonation. Carb it lower, use champagne bottles, or get a draft system that allows for a high pressure keg. Good luck.

 

[Nick the Knife]

I personally wouldn't. Risk of exploding glass is not worth it. I use champagne bottles for that level of carbonation. Carb it lower, use champagne bottles, or get a draft system that allows for a high pressure keg. Good luck.

Appreciate the reply but as I said given the info I can find - that is normal/CUB thin walled glass are rated for 4vol - the much heavier Coopers should be 4+ - as any feedback I can find on their respective rating vs normal is essentially VASTLY superior, just can't quantify what this is.

I'm not sure really what the point of saying get champers bottles or a keg system is - as I've stated I'm bottling.

Please understand I get it if you've had a bad experience and perhaps are extremely risk averse when it comes to carbonation levels but I'm trying to look at the facts and actual ratings rather than just,"Ah I wouldn't" guesses. So I mean no offence by any of this.

Ah look just so I can crack on I think I'll do closer to 3.0v which is high end Lager carbonation, so below the style guide but oodles within the bottle's strength.

But for the record if ANYONE knows the Coopers ratings I'd welcome it for future reference.

 

[Half-baked]

Can’t help with facts, just an anecdote.

A few years ago I had a diastaticus infection. The carb levels were high - at least champagne level. A small number of standard, thin-walled bottles exploded but not the coopers ones.

Luckily there were no injuries, but now am super careful cleaning my lines (and haven’t used an STA+ yeast since)

 

[mynameisrodney]

Apologies in advance for not answering the question, as I dont know what they are actually rated to, but I carbonated mine to 3 volumes and like it at that level. 3.5 vol would probably be fine, 4 I think would be too high for my liking. MY guess would be a coopers longneck would easy hold 3 - 3.5 vol.

 

[MHB]

There are a couple of international standards
China makes all bottles to hold at least 1.2mPa
The rest of the world appears to default to the UK standard of 1.6mPa
Except Japan who demand 1.8mPa
Let’s assume that we (Australians) use 1.6mPa that’s 16 Bar
This really should all be done in metric, in fact the calculations all are, then converted to Volumes
Bit of a table of the outcomes

	Temp 1	Pressure 1	Temp 2	Pressure 2	Temp 3	Pressure 2
Volumes	4oC	Bar	20oC	Bar	40oC	Bar
3	4	1.16	20	2.59	40	5.37
4	4	1.86	20	3.38	40	7.50
5	4	2.58	20	5.00	40	9.60

I have included the pressure at 20 @ 40oC as beer might get hot after being carbonated.

Even at 5 Vols @ 40oC your pressure should only be 9.6 Bar or 0.96mPa, theoretically safe, but that’s for new bottles in perfect condition.
Age, Scratches, Use... would probably reduce that, how far is pretty much a crap shot.
Mark

 

[Nick the Knife]

Thanks everyone - as alluded to I dropped it back to what I'd guess was low end 3.x vols - I already had the sugar syrup made for BPing and just left a portion of it out. I'd be absolutely shocked if any of the Coopers bottles had an issue with it - all in very good nick.

Stirred the BP syrup through the secondary for a few mins and then gave it another 30mins or so while I sanitised bottles (thank GOD for having a few good podcasts) - so would be confident of a very uniform diffusion of it through the beer.

Tad chilly but I'd say we'll see in around 3-4 weeks - I'm confident my 7+yr run of no bottle bombs will continue - much thanks.

PS. I took a moment to email Coopers to ask them of their glass bottle's pressure rating - when I hear back I'll report back so it's known for future brewers here.

 

[Grmblz]

The answer you seek is 3.2 vol's.

 

[Nick the Knife]

The answer you seek is 3.2 vol's.

Hi @Grmblz sorry but 3.2 vols is what?
What you'd recommend for carb level for ginger beer?
Or the pressure limit of Coopers 750ml glass bottles?

For the former, ok thats about what I went with - if you mean for the latter - an you provide some basis or reference for this?

 

[Grmblz]

The former is a matter of personal preference, to the best of my knowledge there are no specific guidelines as such for ginger beer, like cider it can be dead flat (traditional West country scrumpy) or super fizzy. Obviously the majority of folks are going to go with something in between, but to posit an actual level of carbonation for "cider" is merely expressing an opinion, unless an actual "style" of cider is being discussed, and again as far as I know there are no "styles" of ginger beer.

For the latter, below is a response I received from Coopers when I enquired about "safe" carbonation levels for their long-necks.
It's assumed that this is an extremely conservative estimate, duty of care blah, blah, blah etc, however it's worth noting, as a scratch or chip can severely impact a bottles integrity, so it's worth bearing this in mind, it's also one of the reasons I switched to Champagne bottles for certain brews.


G’day Grahame. You could go to 3.2 Vol.

Cheers, Frank.

Customer Service | Coopers Brewery Ltd
461 South Road, Regency Park SA 5010, Australia | E [email protected]
B +61 8 8440 1900 | F +61 8 8440 1888 | Toll free 1300 654 455 |


There's not too many old brewers that haven't experienced bottle bombs, thing have changed, better info/ingredients, and forums such as this to steer new brewers away from danger, so overall they have become a thing of the past, but if you ever have to approach a milk crate half full of the yet to explode bottles with a thick woolen blanket held out in front of you for protection you'll never forget it, or take for granted the ability of your bottles to hold pressure.

 

[Nick the Knife]

Ah - hmmm thats well below what I'd have expected - haha I was feeling all fine after @MHB 's post - not much I can do now but I am truly shocked they say that low. Appreciate the info.

 

[clarkejw]

I seem to remember that a few years ago, Coopers went back to strong glass large bottles purely for home brewers. But, seeming to remember could be dangerous!

 

[Nick the Knife]

I seem to remember that a few years ago, Coopers went back to strong glass large bottles purely for home brewers. But, seeming to remember could be dangerous!

I'm not sure as I buy commercial beer so rarely. I got all my longnecks when as is so often the way a local old fella was selling off all his HB gear. I had no interest in his ghastly looking fermenters, which i think he may have picked up from a yard sale Iraq's Bio Weapons program was having. Yikes!

But he had quite a lot (120 or so) - longnecks - alas covered in dust and crud, with labels on - but I bought them. Cleaned up, soaked in sodium percarbonate solution, labels off - looked a treat. These were the older, heavier Coopers bottles as these were all pre-2015 bottles.

After looking it appears you are correct in that Coopers for atleast a short period changed to thinner walled glass bottles - marked 'No refill'.

There were a very small number of CUB 750ml bottles in there but when you came across one you'd know as it was so much lighter and I immediately discarded these - much less glass used in manufacture. The CUB ones did have stamped on them "No refill" or something similar.

So whatever the CUB & other ones are rated for it stands to reason the thicker Coopers ones would rate above this - what that is, well 3.2v doesn't sound like their rating - more what Coopers say you should put up to in them e.g rated for 4.0v but as a buffer they like to say put no more than 3.2v.

If you check some online Coopers still sell via a lot of HB stores their presumably original thickness bottles.

FWIW just check a number of the empties I have - other than Coopers the only marking they have is AG059. When weighed all of them measured 533-539g.

 

[banksy20]

That sort of pressure is no problem for good Coopers bottles. The problems primarily arise when using older bottles that have spent their lives rubbing and bouncing against other bottles. Minute scratches (or scoring) on the outer glass surfaces make them susceptible to failure with the internal pressure from brewing. Rule of thumb is never brew in scratched glass bottles. Discard the older scarred ones and check them from time to time.

 

[BAA]

Maybe a silly question, but all I see in the forums is discussion about bottling ginger beer. Do many people keg it - or is there a good reason not to?

I have spare space in the kegerator and it would earn me brownie points plus be great for the lazy part of me that hates bottling.

Sorry if this comes across as a thread hi-jack if so will post in a new thread.

 

[clarkejw]

I've kegged all my ginger beers with great results. I also fermented it under pressure. In fact, I just treated it as a normal beer.

 

[Nick the Knife]

Maybe a silly question, but all I see in the forums is discussion about bottling ginger beer. Do many people keg it - or is there a good reason not to?

I have spare space in the kegerator and it would earn me brownie points plus be great for the lazy part of me that hates bottling.

Sorry if this comes across as a thread hi-jack if so will post in a new thread.

You're right to hate bottling.
As mentioned no issue kegging it - in fact this allows you greater freedom as where I wanted a sweetish GB but as bottling had to back sweeten it with a non-fermentable so no over carbonation (using sweetener tabs in end) - you could if you wanted sweet do what I believe the cider/mead crew do - and add potassium sorbate, which effectively castrates the yeast - and then sweeten with sugar and then add CO2 - superior product to what a bottler can get.

 

[Eddy Monsoon]

Had a few batches with the odd bottle bomb particularly mid-summer. I'd stocked up on Gumtree sell-offs so had no knowledge of their age and history.

Realised the ones breaking were all the cheap ones, so have ever since only used Coopers or the XXXX crown bottles and have been fine ever since

Even then I guess they're all at their best the day they leave the factory, and from then on, it's only a matter of time before the bodies give up. #BeerIsLife

 

[Nick the Knife]

Ok this just gets muddier and muddier. Coopers replied back to me today and stated:

They’re not “pressure rated” as such, but our target carbonation is 2.8vols and pressure during 2nd ferment in the warmer months would get well above that. You could prime your beer to target 3vols CO2 without worrying about explosions, assuming there are no faults in the glass caused by reuse over time and you are storing your beer in a temperature-controlled environment.

Soooooooooo being that I'm estimating there's up to 3.3vol in them - I'm now thinking about something I assumed was fine.
I can read between the lines on his response and am sure he's not wanting to say they're designed to safely accept this maximum. So I replied back explaining the situation and asking if they're likely fine or likely issue - all care but no responsibility from him.

I'm kind of shocked as I'd have expected (and everything on her from some folks MUCH smarter than me) would think that 3.5vol is fine - perhaps even in normal (don't reuse labelled bottles) so the much thicker COopers would do low 3.x vol no issue.
I'll see what he says back but I'm wondering if I
1. Leave as is - will likely be fine.
2. Move atleast into plastic storage boxes - incase of any explosions (at present are just in hallway cupboard)
3. Go through the massive hassle of rebottling in plastic bottles (which I have but eeeeks, major infection risk)
4. Something else...

Suffice to say will see what he says but I'd never have thought Coopers bottles are rated so low - as I said to him as they seel these new bottles in LHB they really should state what they are max and recommended pressures - as many folks are doing niche stuff like lambics etc that are mid 3.x vols - seems no clarity on this and that could lead to serious injury.

 

[Nick the Knife]

Ok got to be honest I'm completely ****** off with Coopers. I've supported this mob ever since I got into home brewing - and they champion themselves as the darlings of home brewers in Oz and overseas - but they've been as useful as tits on a bull in getting to the bottom of what SHOULD be public knowledge.

In short they actively sell their glass bottles to LHB stores - these are the same bottles as they sell their own beer in. The public percpetion is that these are resuable bottles and that they're rated to accept superior pressure than most other glass crown seal beer bottles on the market - due to their thicker construction.

Coopers advised me again 3.0vol CO2 is the maximum level of priming they recommend. This is significantly below what just about everyone in this thread and any others I can find on their bottles expects.

THIS IS A POTENTIAL MAJOR ISSUE.

So as I said to Coopers and I'm waiting on a response - why given you sell this brand new, do you have no guidance, recommendation etc included upon or with the carton of new bottles to advise your loyal customers what their maximum recommended pressure level is? Is it that hard? Just about every product you buy for it's purpose will say don't use above this etc e.g cookware in ovens with temp.

That is ******* sloppy and something I'd expect from a backyard mob - and getting this info from them was a PITA.

Sidenote - when I advised my brew was low 3.x vol essentially that having not known 3.0vol max and all info on here from really talented folks like @MHB stated above 3vol OK - and any recommendations purely as a brewer to brewer on this he stated:

As you’ve surmised, my hands are tied in regard to public liability. Read into that what you like.

Essentially - you're on your own.

I find that rather ****** - harsh? fair? or something else?

I will be fascinated to see how they explain why they are selling these bottles with no info on their abilities/ratings.