Coopers (Lager) Yeast

[livo]

I've found this relating to carbonating Lager, (thanks to MHB again)

"Allow the beer to warm back up and like temporary haze will promptly go back into solution - undoing all you have achieved by lagering.
Best to rack the beer to a priming bucket Cold (leaving all the precipitated matter in the primary) with the right amount of sugar mix well and bottle. If you are worried about the amount of yeast in solution you could add a bit of a nice clean yeast to the priming bucket (rehydrate it first) only a gram or two would be enough for a 23L batch"

So this is the plan. Bottling bucket, bulk prime and add 1 gram of hydrated new lager yeast, bottle and sit for a few weeks back in the temp controlled fridge at 13.5'C. Then I'll chill a couple and see how it went.

The SG has dropped right down to 1.002 yesterday and it is a very clean, clear and crisp beer already so I'm hoping for a success with this. A lot of time and fridge space over quite a few weeks now. I think I'll wait for winter before doing it again.

 

[Jolls]

Thanks for the commentry Livo - been following your adventure. My beer ofter next will be a lager in a keg; an early 20th Century Dinner Ale.

Cheers

jolls

 

[livo]

It's been a lot more than I expected it to involve and a far cry from just using lager yeast and fermenting cold. It's now around 24 days since I started this brew. Cold ferment, diacetyl rest, slow temp drop over several days and a week or so at 2'C, then into a bottling bucket, bulk primed with additional yeast and bottled cold. I'm not certain of the effectiveness of my process to this point of having bottles conditioning, and I still have questions.

What temperature should I have the bottles for carbonation / conditioning? For how long?
After rehydrating bottling yeast, what about temperature shock from adding it to the bottling bucket at 2'C?
How would you go about harvesting the yeast from the primary?

I guess I'll find out in a couple of weeks if it worked or not.

 

[livo]

Today marks 1 month since I put this brew together (got my dates mixed up). After priming and bottling at low temperature I returned the bottles to the fridge and allowed the temp to come up over a few days and then they have sat out in ambient for a few more days to carbonate. I put a couple in the fridge 48 hours ago and just cracked one. The process has worked and I don't have any "off" flavours, but I'm a bit disappointed in the end result and it probably comes down to using the Cooper's Lager extract kit. I've said before that it is a bitter beer and this has really come through. I used to drink bitter beer all the time so it won't go to waste but it wasn't worth the effort and time, although I've learnt a lot in the process. Maybe it will mellow from some further lagering.

I guess I'll wait for colder months to use up my other lager yeasts and I'll need to find a more suitable base. Wouldn't you think an extract labelled Lager would be a satisfactory choice to make? Any suggestions?

 

[Reveirs]

Today marks 2 months since I put this brew together. After priming and bottling at low temperature I returned the bottles to the fridge and allowed the temp to come up over a few days and then they have sat out in ambient for a few more days to carbonate. I put a couple in the fridge 48 hours ago and just cracked one. The process has worked and I don't have any "off" flavours, but I'm a bit disappointed in the end result and it probably comes down to using the Cooper's Lager extract kit. I've said before that it is a bitter beer and this has really come through. I used to drink bitter beer all the time so it won't go to waste but it wasn't worth the effort and time, although I've learnt a lot in the process. Maybe it will mellow from some further lagering.

I guess I'll wait for colder months to use up my other lager yeasts and I'll need to find a more suitable base. Wouldn't you think an extract labelled Lager would be a satisfactory choice to make? Any suggestions?

I would use unhopped extract and 20grams of noble hops for a classic German lager flavour.

 

[livo]

Thanks Reveirs. What would be the process? Kit extracts require no boil. Dry hopping / steeping grains etc as processes are understood but I haven't bothered at this early stage of my renewed interest in the hobby. Would the use of unhopped extract and noble hops involve a boil, hopping and cooling to achieve the fermentable wort? I'm not perturbed by the prospect as I've done AG in the past, but I'm not sure it's where I want to head right now.

However, within a few months when the winter is here and lager is a better prospect, I may just go and have a crack.

 

[yankinoz]

Ready to bottle this over the weekend. I would appreciate a little advice as I've not ever done this style of beer before. I can use a bottling bucket and bulk prime.
Question 1) Should I bottle this cold, straight from the lagering fridge or warm it up a bit to room temperature overnight?
Question 2) Is additional priming yeast required or not, and how much if it is?

The beer will warm as you proceed. Then you can finish raising it to carbonating temps. Slower is better.

For what it's worth, I've bottled and carbonated Oktoberfests that had been lagered below six degrees for well over a month, in one case >rwo months. No priming yeast. At about 20 degrees, all clouded in the bottle and then cleared within a week. At ten days a test bottle was carbonated, so I brought the rest back down for more lagering and liked the results. So did tasters.

Cautions. In each case the yeast was S-189. Other yeasts may respond differently.. Many experienced brewers recommend priming yeast, and I've seen one or two accounts where brewers regretted not doing so.

To sum up: you'd very likely have success without priming yeast, but priming yeast would guarantee success.

 

[livo]

Thanks yanks. All good. I went with very low level priming yeast and it has carbonated well. I now have them all in the fridge and they are getting better by the day. I'm only allowing myself 1 longy a day, but even at that rate they won't last long enough to really sit at low temp for long time. If some of my other brews kick in early, they may last a little longer. I should be able to stretch a few out to see what I really have achieved, (but I do get thirsty sometimes).

Winter will be a better prospect now that I know what to expect.

 

[livo]

Personally I think 497Y is a bit of an outlier in yeast terms, it does perform very well at much lower pitch rates, its prone to throwing a bit of Acetaldehyde which matures out during lagering.

Well, I've done a few batches of "faux Lager" over winter using modified (cheat) methods, and both S23 and W34/70 yeasts. They've generally turned out ok. Yesterday, I accidentally opened a bottle of S23 that has only been in the bottles for about 3 weeks. I say accidentally because I have 2 other batches that are older and I just grabbed from the wrong stack. Anyway, the bottle I opened is distinctly "green apples" (possibly even Apple Cider Vinegar) so I'm assuming it is Acetaldehyde. I did taste a bit of this in an earlier batch but not as pronounced as this one. From what I've read, briefly, it could be that it just needs more time conditioning / lagering in the bottles and hopefully this flavour will disappear because it isn't good.

My ale ferments are conditioning in about 2 to 3 weeks usually. I've put a couple of bottles from the older brews in the fridge to try today.

Would it be better to continue to "lager" the newer batch at ambient or fridge temperature to see if this flavour can be conditioned out?

 

[MHB]

One of the tricks with Lager is to keep the yeast active as it cools from fermenting temperatures (8 to12oC) to lagering temps (-1 to 2oC).

The yeast needs to be active to finish a bunch of reactions, including Acetaldehyde reduction. If you crash chill, the yeast is likely to go dormant and not do much cleaning up after itself.
By controlling the rate of cooling to around 1.5 to 2oC/day the yeast will keep working longer and will remove most of the unwanted by-products made earlier in the ferment,
Good to note that a bigger pitch, lower pitching and fermentation temperatures are both very important to the amount of side issues produced by the yeast.
Mark

 

[livo]

Thanks Mark. I'm not too optimistic (yet again). Even the older 2 batches are a bit bluuurrgh. I did the same thing a few times over the winter, and it worked ok but these last 2 double buckets (4 buckets in total) seemed to go astray. I didn't use a ferment chamber and just relied on the winter chill to keep temps down for the initial stage, then warmed them on a heat mat for a few days and then just allowed them to cool down again naturally. I've got about 120 bottles of very ordinary product, so I guess I'll just let it sit for a few weeks and test it again. It could well be going in the drain. 1 batch is better than the other 3, but they all have green apple / ACV taste to them.

All ale ferments for me at the moment. They are just less work and more reliable, I think.

 

[DucatiBoyStu]

The Coopers Lager yeast is a mix of 2 different yeasts

As for Maui, they make yeast specifically to Coopers specs. And no, the tin yeast is NOT the same as the brewery yeast. They have tried to dry the Coopers yeast and it does not work. This came from Dr Tim himself when I got the chance to ask him.

 

[Jon54]

I'm about to start a Coopers Lager. Should the wort be chilled down to ~13 Deg C BEFORE pitching? Instructions (pphhtt...) say mix, pitch promptly then chill, but lager website elsewhere insist chill first. ??

<edit>
MHB above notes "Good to note that a bigger pitch, *lower pitching and fermentation temperatures* are both very important..."

From Lager Method "Chill wort to pitching temp of 48°-53°F (9°-12°C),..."

I suspect Coopers want it make it easy/less complicated on novice brewers (hey, that's me!)

 

[Jon54]

Wort now cooling to 13C in the ferm fridge

 

[Jon54]

Uh-oh… 48 hrs after pitching onto a 13°C Coopers Lager wort and there are no signs of activity! Just a limpid molasses-brown lake. Have I ruined it? I used the yeast sachet that came with the kit, plus a sachet of yeast nutrient I had from a previous brew.

 

[livo]

What yeast did you use? If you used the kit supplied yeast it isn't going to do much at 13'C.

 

[Jon54]

What yeast did you use? If you used the kit supplied yeast it isn't going to do much at 13'C.

Yes - the kit yeast. Cooper's instructions were to mix, pitch promptly at ambient temps preferably in the low 20's, and then cool to around 13 deg (though I don't see how that would result in a better outcome... ferm'n might start and then be shut down?). You'll see my query above and links to info suggesting that chilling the wort first was the way to go, so I disobeyed Mr Cooper, blithely assuming that the yeast supplied with a lager kit would work at lager temps. Oh the folly!
Suggestions going forward?
1) Let the brew warm up and see if the yeast wakes up?
2) go and buy a yeast that will work at 13 deg

 

[fifis101]

I would just warm it up to 20degC and see what happens.
I'm no expert but as far as I know you don't brew at 13degC, it's far too cold. Maybe some yeasts can do it but not regular years.
Hopefully by warming it up it'll get going on it's own.

 

[livo]

I've made heaps of Coopers Lager and I can't ever recall anything about dropping temperature to 13'C. The yeast supplied with the kit from memory, is actually an ale yeast. For 13'C you would need to use a Lager Yeast.

Instructions:

MIX​

1. Mix can contents with 2 litres of water. Add recommended fermentables.

2. Top up FV with cold water to the 20 litre mark, mix thoroughly with plastic spoon and check temperature is between 21°C - 27°C (70°F-80°F).

3. Top up to 23 litres with hot/cold water in order to achieve 21°C - 27°C. Try to get as close as possible to the lower end of the recommended temperature range.

Hint: If you are unsure of the quantities of hot and cold water required try filling the FV with hot and cold water without the ingredients to get a feel for what is needed to achieve 21°C-27°C.

4. Sprinkle yeast evenly on the surface of the brew and fit the lid.

Important: Even if the temperature is outside recommended range but within the range of 18°C-32°C (64°F-90°F) add the yeast. At this point prompt addition of yeast is more important than ideal temperature.

5. Measure Original Gravity. If using a Coopers Original Series brew can and recommended fermentable the Original Gravity (OG) will be 1036 – 1038. If you are adding other fermentables you will need to take the Specific Gravity (SG) reading with a hydrometer to determine OG. Readings will only be accurate if the brew has been mixed thoroughly. See Calculating Alcohol Content.

 

[Jon54]

My kit instructions also say (that after pitching at 21-27 deg C) "While your brew ferments try to keep the brew temp at the lower end of 13 - 18 deg C". Plus I had also seen your earlier post in this thread when you said, "I have my first batch of Coopers Lager under temperature controlled fermentation (13.5'C+/-0.5) with a specialty lager yeast." Add to that my having read about the benefits of brewing at cool temps, and excited to use my new fermentation fridge I kinda missed the bit about using a 'specialty yeast' . As for Coopers supplying an ale yeast with a lager kit... WTF???!!

Right! I'm following fifis101's suggestion to warm it up.