cooling 100L of wort fast?

[MastersBrewery]

In summary I think to get to 20 or bellow 2 chillers would be required, the first to drop into the 30's and the second to drop to pitch temp, and ice required if going bellow 20, sounds like a lot of work and cost though probably worth it in the long run on water savings

 

[gava]

My Personal experience..

I've used Immersion chiller, Plate chiller and home built counterflow chiller.


Immersion Chiller
Below is my first chiller I built which is a immersion chiller with a wirlpool return.
This was built with 18m of 1/2" Copper and worked great! you do NEED a return when dealing with a immersion chiller to get the best results.
With the return it will move more wort around the copper and chill more quickly.

I'd say this would be a good option for 100lt IF you used an ice bath plus whirlpooling as I did.
my brew day chiller steps (when using this chiller)

1) Have about 4 4lt ice cream containers in deep freeze ready for brew day
2) 20-30mins left of boil fill up a large container with water and drop in ice (can use some salt to get it going)
3) Put my sub pump in the large container (water bath)
4) 10left of boil dump chiller in to steralise it.
5) Connect all hoses up and start whirlpool.
6) Flame out turn sub pump on and start chilling.. put the first bloody hot water into a bucket for cleaning or back into HLT
7) Once the water coming out of the waterout side is cool enough put it back in the water bath with the ice for further reticulation.
8) Once the WORT out is coming out at a pitchable temp, Turn pump off, disconnect Whirlpool return and dump into fermenter.

Plate Chiller findings..
I got a 30 plate chiller and wasn't really happy with it from day one.. Using flowers with this without a good hop screen.. HA GOOD LUCK!
got it blocked, went to pick it up to fix it and burnt the bajebus out of my hands so not off to a good start, the water OUT hose got a kink and the WATER IN hose blew off the barb.. again another strike against the plate chiller.
It did end up chilling it ok, not as good as my immersion chiller which I gave up due to it being too heavy for me to lift in and out all the time (got a bad back) so i cut it up to make my counterflow and HERMS coil.
I did like how compact it was but that was it.. Cleaning was a bitch, I forward flushed with PBW back flush, forward,back,forward,under pressure, back,forward... thought ti was clean then soaked in a bucket of hot water and more PBW and found MORE hops coming out.. that was it, it was gone..

Counter Flow Chiller.
this is my personal fav chiller, My home made one worked really well.. it was a straight through 1/2" 8~m copper.
It is compact like the plate chiller (well not as compact) but better than the immersion, You can mount it on your rig so you don't have to lift it up.
with the 1/2" tube if you get some hops through it is very unlikely to be stuck and with a coaxial chiller you can get even better heat exchange.
Using the counterflow + ice bath above I could get better results since I could dump quicker to the fermenter and didn't have to whirlpool as much, saying that the whirlpool does help make the compact hop cone on the bottom of your pot so you don't get as much in your fermenter.

Currently got a full copper coaxial counter flow chiller which is plumbed directly to my tank which pushes out temps around 20c I don't do lagers as much so this temp is good enough for me.. But if you want to get down to lager temp I'd either suggest a pre-chiller / ice bath. Also if your lagers aren't as crisp as you would like I'd also look at your mash temp/schedule water profile etc..

as I said personal experience... each chiller has fans and I get see their point of view also. counter flow suits me..

Gav.

 

[mb-squared]

I agree with Gav, after trying an immersion chiller, I've too have decided the CFC is the way to go for me -- no plugging/clogging and ridiculously efficient/fast. Because I like to get a massive cold break, I follow the CFC with a trip through my HERMS coil (18m 1/2" copper), which sits in my HLT and covered in ice. It works really well. For a pic, you can see the wort-chilling setup in the 7th pic down in this post:
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/78681-my-typical-brew-day/

 

[gava]

I agree with Gav, after trying an immersion chiller, I've too have decided the CFC is the way to go for me -- no plugging/clogging and ridiculously efficient/fast. Because I like to get a massive cold break, I follow the CFC with a trip through my HERMS coil (18m 1/2" copper), which sits in my HLT and covered in ice. It works really well. For a pic, you can see the wort-chilling setup in the 7th pic down in this post:
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/78681-my-typical-brew-day/

OH, I like the idea of the chilled water in the HLT... same as my setup I might try that if I need it chilled quicker..

-gav

 

[Beerisyummy]

Plate Chiller findings..
I got a 30 plate chiller and wasn't really happy with it from day one.. Using flowers with this without a good hop screen.. HA GOOD LUCK!
got it blocked, went to pick it up to fix it and burnt the bajebus out of my hands so not off to a good start, the water OUT hose got a kink and the WATER IN hose blew off the barb.. again another strike against the plate chiller.
It did end up chilling it ok, not as good as my immersion chiller which I gave up due to it being too heavy for me to lift in and out all the time (got a bad back) so i cut it up to make my counterflow and HERMS coil.
I did like how compact it was but that was it.. Cleaning was a bitch, I forward flushed with PBW back flush, forward,back,forward,under pressure, back,forward... thought ti was clean then soaked in a bucket of hot water and more PBW and found MORE hops coming out.. that was it, it was gone..

So I take it you don't like plate chillers? :lol:
Although you deserved the burnt hands and water works, I agree with most of the above. The plate chillers biggest advantage is simply it's size.
I am surprised you found it chilled OK. I've found mine to be the most efficient heat exchanger.

In my system the plate chiller also performs the task of HERMS heat exchanger. Space is at a premium. If it wasn't I'd have probably ditched it for a lower maintenance solution.

By the way, great write up on the different types of chillers. I wish I'd come across something like that when I was making purchase decisions. :beerbang:

 

[lael]

My Personal experience..

I've used Immersion chiller, Plate chiller and home built counterflow chiller.


Immersion Chiller
Below is my first chiller I built which is a immersion chiller with a wirlpool return.
This was built with 18m of 1/2" Copper and worked great! you do NEED a return when dealing with a immersion chiller to get the best results.
With the return it will move more wort around the copper and chill more quickly.

I'd say this would be a good option for 100lt IF you used an ice bath plus whirlpooling as I did.
my brew day chiller steps (when using this chiller)

1) Have about 4 4lt ice cream containers in deep freeze ready for brew day
2) 20-30mins left of boil fill up a large container with water and drop in ice (can use some salt to get it going)
3) Put my sub pump in the large container (water bath)
4) 10left of boil dump chiller in to steralise it.
5) Connect all hoses up and start whirlpool.
6) Flame out turn sub pump on and start chilling.. put the first bloody hot water into a bucket for cleaning or back into HLT
7) Once the water coming out of the waterout side is cool enough put it back in the water bath with the ice for further reticulation.
8) Once the WORT out is coming out at a pitchable temp, Turn pump off, disconnect Whirlpool return and dump into fermenter.




Plate Chiller findings..
I got a 30 plate chiller and wasn't really happy with it from day one.. Using flowers with this without a good hop screen.. HA GOOD LUCK!
got it blocked, went to pick it up to fix it and burnt the bajebus out of my hands so not off to a good start, the water OUT hose got a kink and the WATER IN hose blew off the barb.. again another strike against the plate chiller.
It did end up chilling it ok, not as good as my immersion chiller which I gave up due to it being too heavy for me to lift in and out all the time (got a bad back) so i cut it up to make my counterflow and HERMS coil.
I did like how compact it was but that was it.. Cleaning was a bitch, I forward flushed with PBW back flush, forward,back,forward,under pressure, back,forward... thought ti was clean then soaked in a bucket of hot water and more PBW and found MORE hops coming out.. that was it, it was gone..

Counter Flow Chiller.
this is my personal fav chiller, My home made one worked really well.. it was a straight through 1/2" 8~m copper.
It is compact like the plate chiller (well not as compact) but better than the immersion, You can mount it on your rig so you don't have to lift it up.
with the 1/2" tube if you get some hops through it is very unlikely to be stuck and with a coaxial chiller you can get even better heat exchange.
Using the counterflow + ice bath above I could get better results since I could dump quicker to the fermenter and didn't have to whirlpool as much, saying that the whirlpool does help make the compact hop cone on the bottom of your pot so you don't get as much in your fermenter.



Currently got a full copper coaxial counter flow chiller which is plumbed directly to my tank which pushes out temps around 20c I don't do lagers as much so this temp is good enough for me.. But if you want to get down to lager temp I'd either suggest a pre-chiller / ice bath. Also if your lagers aren't as crisp as you would like I'd also look at your mash temp/schedule water profile etc..



as I said personal experience... each chiller has fans and I get see their point of view also. counter flow suits me..

Gav.

Gav- this is awesome - thanks a ton!

With your immersion chiller - what size batches were you doing and how long did it take to get to pitching temps? (ales) What happens to hot break etc when recirculating - get chopped up tiny from the pump? does it settle inside the cylinder made by the chiller? How heavy was the 18m of 1/2" coppper?

So with your counterflow chiller you aren't using any ice to get it to 20C? just tap water? and it sounds like you are still whirlpooling before sending it through the final pass. What temp are you getting the wort to before you stop recirculating? - is the new commercial one you have significantly better than your home made one?

 

[gava]

Gav- this is awesome - thanks a ton!

With your immersion chiller - what size batches were you doing and how long did it take to get to pitching temps? (ales) What happens to hot break etc when recirculating - get chopped up tiny from the pump? does it settle inside the cylinder made by the chiller? How heavy was the 18m of 1/2" coppper?
So with your counterflow chiller you aren't using any ice to get it to 20C? just tap water? and it sounds like you are still whirlpooling before sending it through the final pass. What temp are you getting the wort to before you stop recirculating? - is the new commercial one you have significantly better than your home made one?

**Warning** little foggy headed from beers lastnight hopefully makes sense

With the immersion chilller I was doing up to 42lt batches, I can't remember the cooling time but it was pretty damn quick, when using the ice bath it was even better. The pitching temp I worked to was 18c~ for ales can't remember for lagers but wasn't to low.. maybe 16c..
I believe the hot break just gets "folded" back in, not really chopped up from the pump, I'm no expert with hot break but aslong as the goodies made from the hotbreak are in your wort and make it to your fermenter its all happy days?

Your asking if the hotbreak goodies (forget the term) settles within the compacted hop con in the middle? good question, simple answer no f'ing idea. Id' Imagaine there would be a bit within the cone but it should have spread throughout your wort enough that a higher percentage would be mixed through.. i.e. your hop cone could be about the size of small bowl, the % of hot break within the hop cone v's 40lts of wort might not enough to worry about, this is me just assuming a few things i could be wrong..

It was heavy but not overly heavey, Not sure the exact numbers but two hand job to get up into the pot. My lower back goes out time to time and if I had a inkling it was on its way out I didn't want to lift it.

With the counterflow I don't use an ice bath at the moment I use tank water, and I'm whirlpooling as I chill. You have to resirculate when using a counterflow, unless you have some super cold liquid and you can just dump into the fermenter with one pass. but doing that you can increase the hops that make it from your kettle to your fermenter. I like doing a whirlpool to make the hard hop cone in the middle then slowing drain the wort away. I'd stop whirlpooling when I hit my pitching temp and then let it sit there for about 10minutes for the hop cone to form then just dump off.

The commercial counter flow I have is better than my home made one for a few reason, smaller foot print.. Inner tube is coaxial for more turbulance and contact time of the liquids. easier to mount... As for the exchange rate I'd say my new one would be better since its pretty close to the same spec but with a coaxial inner tube. My home made one just had the straight through. I'm doing a brew this weekend (only 23lt test batch) i'll take some readings on the chilling time.

-Gav

 

[nathan_madness]

So I tried my twin plat chiller setup today to do my first cold start lager and wow. I had 74L in to the fermenters in 23 minutes at around 6°c.

I used 50g of pellets and 130g of fresh Saaz off my bines along with another 90g of Saaz in my Hop Rocket. All you need to do is use a hop sock or hop spider and plate chillers RULE!!!

You can see I don't have the tap on the pump open fully, but it was taking roughly 6 minutes to get 24L into each fermenter.

 

[lael]

So if I'm boiling my hops inside a grain bag... shouldn't be an issue?