cooling 100L of wort fast?

[lael]

ok - so I just brewed with the braumonster for the second time.... and waited 1.5 hours to get the wort from boiling to 30C. Down to 50C or so wasn't so bad - maybe 20-30mins. But... rapidly realising that my immersion chiller that was brilliant for 20L batch and passable for 40/50L is not going to cut it for 90L of hot wort. The wort is in the ferm freezer dropping overnight for pitching (sanitised etc and airlocks in place...)

From looking around after my last brew day it looks like the options are 1. - recirculate into an ice bath after 50C 2. counterflow chiller 3. plate chiller. OR - 2 or 3 with #1

Any suggestions / personal experience on what to use and why? I kind of like an immersion chiller cause there isn't possibility of blockages / sanitisation issues on the inside of chiller.

Any ideas and experiences very much appreciated!

 

[pk.sax]

I'm thinking if you brew with yeast ready to pitch you could brew slightly under volume and put a 5kg bag of ice in there. They advertise the ice as being made sanitary so as long as you pitch quickly can't see an issue but the chilling might make life easier.

 

[peas_and_corn]

Go for the plate chiller, it's convenient

 

[Beerisyummy]

Go for the plate chiller, it's convenient

I've been using one of these for some time now. They really do work quickly ( provided the water supply is fairly cool).

One thing to note, is that it adds an extra filter and an extra couple of steps to my system. The filter stops blockages and the plate chiller gets 10 minutes of boiling wort at the beginning and end of the boil.
Without that, the plate chiller would be in the bin by now.

 

[MastersBrewery]

I have a home made counter flow chiller made from 1/2 inch ss tube works well, and I still have half of the coil sitting in the shed. Might be worth a try out come brew day happy to bring with.

 

[nathan_madness]

I've got 2 of the MM 30 plates. I run tap water through the 1st one then it feeds it's wort into the second chiller where I have recirculated ice water running through. I can chill from boil to 12 degrees pumping through with my March pump fully open. I use 3 bags of ice to chill 80L.

 

[dent]

I would argue that the benefits of chilling past 50 degrees or so are very limited. I would just put it in your fermenter/s at that point and use your fridge or whatever to get it down to pitching temp -- tomorrow. Which I guess where you are at already.

That way you are not at a the mercy of the tap water temperature, and you won't be tempted to pitch yeast at unduly high temperatures.

 

[lael]

I have a home made counter flow chiller made from 1/2 inch ss tube works well, and I still have half of the coil sitting in the shed. Might be worth a try out come brew day happy to bring with.

That would be awesome!

 

[lael]

I've been using one of these for some time now. They really do work quickly ( provided the water supply is fairly cool).

One thing to note, is that it adds an extra filter and an extra couple of steps to my system. The filter stops blockages and the plate chiller gets 10 minutes of boiling wort at the beginning and end of the boil.
Without that, the plate chiller would be in the bin by now.

What sort of filter are you using pre-chiller? The whole blockage / gunk in plate chiller is what I am hesitant about with them. What is the clean up process like?

I think I need to figure out what size etc it is worth getting.
What size batch are you chilling - to what temp, using what size chiller and with what method - eg: chilled / ice, recirculating?

 

[lael]

I've got 2 of the MM 30 plates. I run tap water through the 1st one then it feeds it's wort into the second chiller where I have recirculated ice water running through. I can chill from boil to 12 degrees pumping through with my March pump fully open. I use 3 bags of ice to chill 80L.

these ones? http://www.mashmaster.com/p/1141466/chillout-mkiii---30-plate.html

How long does it take to chill the entire batch? Running tap water wide open on the first one? recirculating at all?
12 degrees is cold! I assume that is for lagers? - What size of container are you dumping the ice in and recirculating through for the second plate?

one of the reasons that jamil and co suggest an immersion is better is that the entire wort body drops below 80C very quickly - which prevents DMS (I think that is the temp) and I think hop isomerisation temp is also 80C? - so... if we can get all the wort below 80C quickly, does that mean we keep hop flavour and aroma from late additions? (I assume those compounds are volatile at different temps? anyone know what they are?) - do you use any recirculation to chill the entire wort before running through both plate chillers?

and similar to above - what's your clean up process like?

 

[lael]

I would argue that the benefits of chilling past 50 degrees or so are very limited. I would just put it in your fermenter/s at that point and use your fridge or whatever to get it down to pitching temp -- tomorrow. Which I guess where you are at already.

That way you are not at a the mercy of the tap water temperature, and you won't be tempted to pitch yeast at unduly high temperatures.

Why past 50 degrees?

 

[lael]

Thanks so much for everyone's help - this is awesome - been doing a bunch of reading online also. It looks like a bunch of people in the USA that are using immersion chillers have 50' (around 17m or so) copper chillers. That's pretty big... and copper here isn't too cheap. Though it doesn't seem like there is a cheap way to solve this and get efficient heat transfer. (except no chilling... but that is not chilling...)

 

[dent]

Why past 50 degrees?

By then hop isomerisation, loss of hop aromatics, and DMS generation are no longer happening (enough to matter). I quoted 50 degrees since the OP seemed to be happy to get that far.

 

[Donske]

Thanks so much for everyone's help - this is awesome - been doing a bunch of reading online also. It looks like a bunch of people in the USA that are using immersion chillers have 50' (around 17m or so) copper chillers. That's pretty big... and copper here isn't too cheap. Though it doesn't seem like there is a cheap way to solve this and get efficient heat transfer. (except no chilling... but that is not chilling...)

I have a 50' 5/8" copper immersion chiller, it's probably not what you're looking for, it gets a double batch to 40°C pretty quick and then really struggles to get below 30°C. I doubt it would get 100L batches down anywhere near quick enough.

 

[mb-squared]

I've got 2 of the MM 30 plates. I run tap water through the 1st one then it feeds it's wort into the second chiller where I have recirculated ice water running through. I can chill from boil to 12 degrees pumping through with my March pump fully open. I use 3 bags of ice to chill 80L.

I do pretty much the same thing. Boiling wort hits the CFC first with just garden hose water (which then goes into the pool, which only gets topped up on brew days), then its on to my HERMS coil which sits in the HLT that is now full of 3 bags of ice. I get 60L from boiling to 12C in <15 minutes and I get the most amazing cold break, which really helps with clarity and longevity of the beer (or so they say...)

 

[Beerisyummy]

What sort of filter are you using pre-chiller? The whole blockage / gunk in plate chiller is what I am hesitant about with them. What is the clean up process like?

I think I need to figure out what size etc it is worth getting.
What size batch are you chilling - to what temp, using what size chiller and with what method - eg: chilled / ice, recirculating?

I've been using stainless steel mesh in a water filter housing to pre filter. Prior to this I was using hop socks only.

For clean up I just flush it back and forth with the 90psi tap water before storing it wet.
It still has some gunk in it, but I normally give the whole system a run through, with a small amount of boiling water, before starting another batch.That tends to clean out any left over gunk.

The plate chiller I have is the 30 plate one sold at most places. I don't use ice and I never have the tap on full flow (both of which would increase cooling capacity).
My method involves getting a good whirlpool going to keep the hops away from the pump pickup, then recirculating back into the pot until I'm down around the 60c mark. At this point I usually get bored and just start running the chiller into the FV. It usually comes out at around 25c at this point. The fridge does the rest.

I'm only ever doing 40 odd litres at a time, although it's pretty easy to scale things up to your size batch. The plate chillers will take 100c wort and spit it out just above tap temps, given a good supply of water and a slowed throughput.

The biggest downside to a plate chiller is that they clog and are hard to clean.

 

[nathan_madness]

these ones? http://www.mashmaster.com/p/1141466/chillout-mkiii---30-plate.html

How long does it take to chill the entire batch? Running tap water wide open on the first one? recirculating at all?
12 degrees is cold! I assume that is for lagers? - What size of container are you dumping the ice in and recirculating through for the second plate?

one of the reasons that jamil and co suggest an immersion is better is that the entire wort body drops below 80C very quickly - which prevents DMS (I think that is the temp) and I think hop isomerisation temp is also 80C? - so... if we can get all the wort below 80C quickly, does that mean we keep hop flavour and aroma from late additions? (I assume those compounds are volatile at different temps? anyone know what they are?) - do you use any recirculation to chill the entire wort before running through both plate chillers?

and similar to above - what's your clean up process like?

Well the 815 March is capable of 30LPM, but you have to allow for the "Hop Rocket" and chillers reducing the flow rate a little. I would say it takes about 6 minutes to do the entire batch. I split my batches in to 3 x 25L fermenters so there is a bit of stop and starting. My two chillers are daisy chained together so there is no secondary container it's straight into the fermenter.

I use one of those 50L soft pastic buckets that you can get at Bunnings for my salty ice water and a pump off my old marine fishtank to recirculate it.

As I mentioned above I use a "Hop Rocket" for adding that extra hop aroma and also it works as an awesome filter.

I don't have any other chilling method as 6 minutes is fast enough for me.

Clean up is simple. Remove the 2 chillers connect them to the purge line on your house hot water system and blast high pressure hot water through them to clean out the gunk. I clean my mash tun and then wash it with PBW recirculating it like i'm doing a mash through the HERMS coil. I connect my the MLT in to the the chillers daisy chained together and recirculate back in the MLT. Basically recirculating hot PBW through the chillers for 20 or so minutes while I clean up. I dump all my fittings etc. on my false bottom and let the MLT wash the lot it's so simple. Then just flush with clean water and store them upside down on a slight angle to dry. On the brew day I fill the chillers with Starsan first before anything else so they sit there for 3 or more hours sanitising.

 

[nathan_madness]

I forgot to mention. Yes, it's for lagers. I really want to do cold start lagers so my plan is to get the wort into the fermenters at around 6-8°C. I will be able to do this with more ice and slower flow rate on the pump. My next planned batch is a triple batch of German Pils on the 6th of April so I will let you know.

 

[lael]

Thanks so much everyone for your feedback! the details are super helpful for figuring out how these things work in practice.

nathan - your two chillers are sounding pretty good - what happens if / when they clog? ever had it happen? Are you pumping the wort through the hop rocket and then through the two plate chillers in series? and pumping ice water through the second chiller also? (so two pumps? or gravity fed wort?)

One thing I'm super curious about... the wort gets cold inside the plate chiller - what happens to the cold break?

beerisyummy - you mentioned getting blockages - what's your experience?
I saw http://www.biasboating.com.au/In_Line_Filter_1_p/1324.htm and something similar to http://www.biasboating.com.au/Inlet_Filter_p/7545.htm at bias boating last time I was there. What filter are you using for yours? How long does it take you to get below 60C?

I have a 50' 5/8" copper immersion chiller, it's probably not what you're looking for, it gets a double batch to 40°C pretty quick and then really struggles to get below 30°C. I doubt it would get 100L batches down anywhere near quick enough.

Thanks Donske! - this is really helpful to know. Would a 1/2" diameter be any more effective for heat transfer? You're right though, doesn't sound like it would cope.

Sounds like a rule of thumb is 1 bag of ice for each 20L...

 

[nathan_madness]

I have never had one clog. and don't think I ever will. Either use a hop sock/spider or whirlpool (takes longer to chill as you have to wait for the whirlpool to settle). Yeah, I use a March 815 to pump the wort into the Hop Rocket which then feeds into the daisy chained chillers. I use a cheap fish tank / pond pump ($30) to recirculate the salty ice water.

The cold break will end up in your fermenter. I use the Hop Rocket to filter and it works perfectly and the wort runs clear when hot when chilled I end up with about 5mm of cold break at the bottom of a 25L batch.

 

[MastersBrewery]

In summary I think to get to 20 or bellow 2 chillers would be required, the first to drop into the 30's and the second to drop to pitch temp, and ice required if going bellow 20, sounds like a lot of work and cost though probably worth it in the long run on water savings

 

[gava]

My Personal experience..

I've used Immersion chiller, Plate chiller and home built counterflow chiller.


Immersion Chiller
Below is my first chiller I built which is a immersion chiller with a wirlpool return.
This was built with 18m of 1/2" Copper and worked great! you do NEED a return when dealing with a immersion chiller to get the best results.
With the return it will move more wort around the copper and chill more quickly.

I'd say this would be a good option for 100lt IF you used an ice bath plus whirlpooling as I did.
my brew day chiller steps (when using this chiller)

1) Have about 4 4lt ice cream containers in deep freeze ready for brew day
2) 20-30mins left of boil fill up a large container with water and drop in ice (can use some salt to get it going)
3) Put my sub pump in the large container (water bath)
4) 10left of boil dump chiller in to steralise it.
5) Connect all hoses up and start whirlpool.
6) Flame out turn sub pump on and start chilling.. put the first bloody hot water into a bucket for cleaning or back into HLT
7) Once the water coming out of the waterout side is cool enough put it back in the water bath with the ice for further reticulation.
8) Once the WORT out is coming out at a pitchable temp, Turn pump off, disconnect Whirlpool return and dump into fermenter.

Plate Chiller findings..
I got a 30 plate chiller and wasn't really happy with it from day one.. Using flowers with this without a good hop screen.. HA GOOD LUCK!
got it blocked, went to pick it up to fix it and burnt the bajebus out of my hands so not off to a good start, the water OUT hose got a kink and the WATER IN hose blew off the barb.. again another strike against the plate chiller.
It did end up chilling it ok, not as good as my immersion chiller which I gave up due to it being too heavy for me to lift in and out all the time (got a bad back) so i cut it up to make my counterflow and HERMS coil.
I did like how compact it was but that was it.. Cleaning was a bitch, I forward flushed with PBW back flush, forward,back,forward,under pressure, back,forward... thought ti was clean then soaked in a bucket of hot water and more PBW and found MORE hops coming out.. that was it, it was gone..

Counter Flow Chiller.
this is my personal fav chiller, My home made one worked really well.. it was a straight through 1/2" 8~m copper.
It is compact like the plate chiller (well not as compact) but better than the immersion, You can mount it on your rig so you don't have to lift it up.
with the 1/2" tube if you get some hops through it is very unlikely to be stuck and with a coaxial chiller you can get even better heat exchange.
Using the counterflow + ice bath above I could get better results since I could dump quicker to the fermenter and didn't have to whirlpool as much, saying that the whirlpool does help make the compact hop cone on the bottom of your pot so you don't get as much in your fermenter.

Currently got a full copper coaxial counter flow chiller which is plumbed directly to my tank which pushes out temps around 20c I don't do lagers as much so this temp is good enough for me.. But if you want to get down to lager temp I'd either suggest a pre-chiller / ice bath. Also if your lagers aren't as crisp as you would like I'd also look at your mash temp/schedule water profile etc..

as I said personal experience... each chiller has fans and I get see their point of view also. counter flow suits me..

Gav.

 

[mb-squared]

I agree with Gav, after trying an immersion chiller, I've too have decided the CFC is the way to go for me -- no plugging/clogging and ridiculously efficient/fast. Because I like to get a massive cold break, I follow the CFC with a trip through my HERMS coil (18m 1/2" copper), which sits in my HLT and covered in ice. It works really well. For a pic, you can see the wort-chilling setup in the 7th pic down in this post:
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/78681-my-typical-brew-day/

 

[gava]

I agree with Gav, after trying an immersion chiller, I've too have decided the CFC is the way to go for me -- no plugging/clogging and ridiculously efficient/fast. Because I like to get a massive cold break, I follow the CFC with a trip through my HERMS coil (18m 1/2" copper), which sits in my HLT and covered in ice. It works really well. For a pic, you can see the wort-chilling setup in the 7th pic down in this post:
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/78681-my-typical-brew-day/

OH, I like the idea of the chilled water in the HLT... same as my setup I might try that if I need it chilled quicker..

-gav

 

[Beerisyummy]

Plate Chiller findings..
I got a 30 plate chiller and wasn't really happy with it from day one.. Using flowers with this without a good hop screen.. HA GOOD LUCK!
got it blocked, went to pick it up to fix it and burnt the bajebus out of my hands so not off to a good start, the water OUT hose got a kink and the WATER IN hose blew off the barb.. again another strike against the plate chiller.
It did end up chilling it ok, not as good as my immersion chiller which I gave up due to it being too heavy for me to lift in and out all the time (got a bad back) so i cut it up to make my counterflow and HERMS coil.
I did like how compact it was but that was it.. Cleaning was a bitch, I forward flushed with PBW back flush, forward,back,forward,under pressure, back,forward... thought ti was clean then soaked in a bucket of hot water and more PBW and found MORE hops coming out.. that was it, it was gone..

So I take it you don't like plate chillers? :lol:
Although you deserved the burnt hands and water works, I agree with most of the above. The plate chillers biggest advantage is simply it's size.
I am surprised you found it chilled OK. I've found mine to be the most efficient heat exchanger.

In my system the plate chiller also performs the task of HERMS heat exchanger. Space is at a premium. If it wasn't I'd have probably ditched it for a lower maintenance solution.

By the way, great write up on the different types of chillers. I wish I'd come across something like that when I was making purchase decisions. :beerbang:

 

[lael]

My Personal experience..

I've used Immersion chiller, Plate chiller and home built counterflow chiller.


Immersion Chiller
Below is my first chiller I built which is a immersion chiller with a wirlpool return.
This was built with 18m of 1/2" Copper and worked great! you do NEED a return when dealing with a immersion chiller to get the best results.
With the return it will move more wort around the copper and chill more quickly.

I'd say this would be a good option for 100lt IF you used an ice bath plus whirlpooling as I did.
my brew day chiller steps (when using this chiller)

1) Have about 4 4lt ice cream containers in deep freeze ready for brew day
2) 20-30mins left of boil fill up a large container with water and drop in ice (can use some salt to get it going)
3) Put my sub pump in the large container (water bath)
4) 10left of boil dump chiller in to steralise it.
5) Connect all hoses up and start whirlpool.
6) Flame out turn sub pump on and start chilling.. put the first bloody hot water into a bucket for cleaning or back into HLT
7) Once the water coming out of the waterout side is cool enough put it back in the water bath with the ice for further reticulation.
8) Once the WORT out is coming out at a pitchable temp, Turn pump off, disconnect Whirlpool return and dump into fermenter.




Plate Chiller findings..
I got a 30 plate chiller and wasn't really happy with it from day one.. Using flowers with this without a good hop screen.. HA GOOD LUCK!
got it blocked, went to pick it up to fix it and burnt the bajebus out of my hands so not off to a good start, the water OUT hose got a kink and the WATER IN hose blew off the barb.. again another strike against the plate chiller.
It did end up chilling it ok, not as good as my immersion chiller which I gave up due to it being too heavy for me to lift in and out all the time (got a bad back) so i cut it up to make my counterflow and HERMS coil.
I did like how compact it was but that was it.. Cleaning was a bitch, I forward flushed with PBW back flush, forward,back,forward,under pressure, back,forward... thought ti was clean then soaked in a bucket of hot water and more PBW and found MORE hops coming out.. that was it, it was gone..

Counter Flow Chiller.
this is my personal fav chiller, My home made one worked really well.. it was a straight through 1/2" 8~m copper.
It is compact like the plate chiller (well not as compact) but better than the immersion, You can mount it on your rig so you don't have to lift it up.
with the 1/2" tube if you get some hops through it is very unlikely to be stuck and with a coaxial chiller you can get even better heat exchange.
Using the counterflow + ice bath above I could get better results since I could dump quicker to the fermenter and didn't have to whirlpool as much, saying that the whirlpool does help make the compact hop cone on the bottom of your pot so you don't get as much in your fermenter.



Currently got a full copper coaxial counter flow chiller which is plumbed directly to my tank which pushes out temps around 20c I don't do lagers as much so this temp is good enough for me.. But if you want to get down to lager temp I'd either suggest a pre-chiller / ice bath. Also if your lagers aren't as crisp as you would like I'd also look at your mash temp/schedule water profile etc..



as I said personal experience... each chiller has fans and I get see their point of view also. counter flow suits me..

Gav.

Gav- this is awesome - thanks a ton!

With your immersion chiller - what size batches were you doing and how long did it take to get to pitching temps? (ales) What happens to hot break etc when recirculating - get chopped up tiny from the pump? does it settle inside the cylinder made by the chiller? How heavy was the 18m of 1/2" coppper?

So with your counterflow chiller you aren't using any ice to get it to 20C? just tap water? and it sounds like you are still whirlpooling before sending it through the final pass. What temp are you getting the wort to before you stop recirculating? - is the new commercial one you have significantly better than your home made one?

 

[gava]

Gav- this is awesome - thanks a ton!

With your immersion chiller - what size batches were you doing and how long did it take to get to pitching temps? (ales) What happens to hot break etc when recirculating - get chopped up tiny from the pump? does it settle inside the cylinder made by the chiller? How heavy was the 18m of 1/2" coppper?
So with your counterflow chiller you aren't using any ice to get it to 20C? just tap water? and it sounds like you are still whirlpooling before sending it through the final pass. What temp are you getting the wort to before you stop recirculating? - is the new commercial one you have significantly better than your home made one?

**Warning** little foggy headed from beers lastnight hopefully makes sense

With the immersion chilller I was doing up to 42lt batches, I can't remember the cooling time but it was pretty damn quick, when using the ice bath it was even better. The pitching temp I worked to was 18c~ for ales can't remember for lagers but wasn't to low.. maybe 16c..
I believe the hot break just gets "folded" back in, not really chopped up from the pump, I'm no expert with hot break but aslong as the goodies made from the hotbreak are in your wort and make it to your fermenter its all happy days?

Your asking if the hotbreak goodies (forget the term) settles within the compacted hop con in the middle? good question, simple answer no f'ing idea. Id' Imagaine there would be a bit within the cone but it should have spread throughout your wort enough that a higher percentage would be mixed through.. i.e. your hop cone could be about the size of small bowl, the % of hot break within the hop cone v's 40lts of wort might not enough to worry about, this is me just assuming a few things i could be wrong..

It was heavy but not overly heavey, Not sure the exact numbers but two hand job to get up into the pot. My lower back goes out time to time and if I had a inkling it was on its way out I didn't want to lift it.

With the counterflow I don't use an ice bath at the moment I use tank water, and I'm whirlpooling as I chill. You have to resirculate when using a counterflow, unless you have some super cold liquid and you can just dump into the fermenter with one pass. but doing that you can increase the hops that make it from your kettle to your fermenter. I like doing a whirlpool to make the hard hop cone in the middle then slowing drain the wort away. I'd stop whirlpooling when I hit my pitching temp and then let it sit there for about 10minutes for the hop cone to form then just dump off.

The commercial counter flow I have is better than my home made one for a few reason, smaller foot print.. Inner tube is coaxial for more turbulance and contact time of the liquids. easier to mount... As for the exchange rate I'd say my new one would be better since its pretty close to the same spec but with a coaxial inner tube. My home made one just had the straight through. I'm doing a brew this weekend (only 23lt test batch) i'll take some readings on the chilling time.

-Gav

 

[nathan_madness]

So I tried my twin plat chiller setup today to do my first cold start lager and wow. I had 74L in to the fermenters in 23 minutes at around 6°c.

I used 50g of pellets and 130g of fresh Saaz off my bines along with another 90g of Saaz in my Hop Rocket. All you need to do is use a hop sock or hop spider and plate chillers RULE!!!

You can see I don't have the tap on the pump open fully, but it was taking roughly 6 minutes to get 24L into each fermenter.

 

[lael]

So if I'm boiling my hops inside a grain bag... shouldn't be an issue?