Cool Room and fermentation Air Conditioning

[redcane]

I realise I didn't say in the original post that I'm normally brewing at 18-21 degrees, and so ordinarily not much cooling is required (might even be the average ambient temp). But if I'm spending any money I want to make sure I can brew any beer style I want.

Dare I ask, if you're going to spend the money on an air-conditioner, then why not just get a fridge to put inside your chamber?

That aside, If you build the chamber small, and go absolute overkill on the air conditioner you might get temps that low. Our air con in the bedroom is speced for a room twice it's size, and it frequently gets very chilly (sub 15 degrees) in the bedroom. If you buy the biggest air con that you can't-quite afford (split system) then you might get away with it.

That is one heck of an expensive way to ferment beer however ...

Yep, maybe that is the way to go. However I can also see this adding heat load to the chamber, and as it's insulated the temperature in there will just climb. I guess there is always the option of a thermostatically controlled fan to blow hot air out during the night when it's colder outside the chamber. From my understanding it shouldn't be any more expensive than cooling an uninsulated room of the same size, it was more of a question of if the temperature can go low enough for some beer styles. I can live with 18 degrees, especially as I can use the space for other things (tin shed is currently way too hot), and cooling a smaller space further.

Agree. Great you've got an insulated shed but I doubt it is going to seal well enough to maintain temps that low, and It'll cost you a fortune to maintain that low a temperature in that large a space in summer.

But you'll be better off spending money on a 2nd hand fridge than an A/C unit for the entire shed. Stick the fridge in the shed and ferment normally in it, the ambient temps inside your shed will be better which means the fridge won't need to run as much.

I'm pretty sure it's almost air tight (was sealed with silastic) except the door. With little effort I could probably make that seal too. I've calculated the heat load for 50mm panels to be between 350-700 watts with a temperature differential of 25 degrees across the chamber walls (assuming it's sealed). Pretty sure the high COP of some air conditioning units compared to residential fridges might make up for the increased space, especially as fridges are designed to go to a much lower temperature than I normally need. However the reduced running time when running at higher temps does help.

I just stumbled onto this thread while on my usual gleaning regime.

Great link.

I'm pretty sure an AC unit is much stronger than your average fridge boys and girls.

From my research a residential fridge compressor is only made to move 60-180 watts of heat - small surface area means that this is generally the most heat that will transfer in. Whereas AC units are made to move 1kW to 18kW but with a smaller temperature differential. I suppose that is why the commercial cool room stuff is expensive - it has a high heat capacity of AC unit, with the larger temperature differential of a fridge.

Maybe a fridgie knows if the extra efficiency of running a fridge in an 18 degree chamber (versus up to 48 degree tin shed temps) outweighs the added heat load on the AC cooling the chamber?

 

[redcane]

http://www.storeitcold.com/index.html

I'm a little sceptical of their claims - "patent pending technology that just became available in 2006".... But in theory the coils in a split system go much lower than the target room temperature. I can see the efficiency suffering (and heat capacity needing to be de-rated) but that is probably ok if I only want to do a lager once in a blue moon!

Also they recommend 4" of styrofoam - which is a bit more than I have.

 

[mikec]

Also they recommend 4" of styrofoam - which is a bit more than I have.

Build twice as thick, half as big.

 

[Camo6]

Funny how relevant threads seem to pop up at the right time. Just picked up a trailer load of coolroom panelling which I plan to use to insulate my current brewshed. Initially I just want to insulate it from the sun but would like to eventually convert it to a walk in coolroom. Was planning on using an old a/c wall unit for the job (hooked up to an STC1000) so will be watching this thread closely.

 

[redcane]

Build twice as thick, half as big.

Good point!

I was considering I could put my dead fridge inside and it'd be more insulation. And I could disassemble the panels and reassemble them for a smaller space, but it's currently a very nice jigsaw puzzle

 

[booargy]

I need a glycol chiller. So I was working with the aircon blokes. They reckon that an air con unit is best value. if you are getting icing the unit is to small.

 

[redcane]

There is a bit of a discussion about store it cold here: http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/1936626

Basically it looks like there are some features designed into the commercial cool room units that residential a/c will lack, but the coolbot tries to compensate for. There are some concerns around humidity which probably aren't an issue with brewing.

 

[dougsbrew]

Maybe a fridgie knows if the extra efficiency of running a fridge in an 18 degree chamber (versus up to 48 degree tin shed temps) outweighs the added heat load on the AC cooling the chamber?

tough question, all of the heat that the fridge makes will have to be removed by the aircon + keeping the room cool aswell, you be running 2 cooling units so i imagine would be less efficent whereas a fridge in open air dissapates without any other power drain.
i do like this idea though.. you could have your lagers in the fridge, and your ales in your 20 degree room, and in winter the heat from fridge would warm the room.

 

[redcane]

That would help in winter - but I've always found a heat mat a cheap enough and easy option. It's always been cooling that I've had issues with.

I also considered the idea of placing the fridge through the cool room wall - so that the rear coils vent outside the coolroom. The fridge might not run as efficiently (higher ambient temp) but should get less heat transferred into it. I guess you could put a fridge sized door in, and during winter move the fridge inside the cool room and close the door.

I wish I had the cool room set up for the heat wave in January so I could have measured what sort of temperatures it maintained without active cooling/heating.

 

[wobbly]

Check out this site http://franklinbrew.org/members/sj/walkin.html on a complete cold room build

and another one here http://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Walk-in_Cooler

Cheers

Wobbly

 

[justsomeguy]

Took me ages to find this thread again. :blink:

Anyway, I've built a 'coolroom' using 75mm coolroom panels and a small AC unit. It holds 12 kegs easily and has a separate section independently temperature controlled for up to two fermenters.

The system works a treat and has for the past 3 years or so. I run the system at around 4c whilst the fermentation section runs at anything from 6-20+ depending on whats fermenting. I've bypassed the thermostat and just run a digital controller. The cooler hasn't skipped a beat even during days when the temperature in the shed (where the cooler is) has been well over 50c. During winter in WA (not that cold) the AC unit runs for around 10 minutes every two hours or so. During summer it might be 10-15 minutes every hour. When I first turned the system on 3 years ago I also hooked up a power meter to see what the usage would be like. Over that first week the power consumed worked out to be around $35 per year in running costs. Obviously power costs have risen since then and I've not done another test of the systems efficiency.

In all the time the system has been running the only issue has been that it has iced up 3-4 times. The times its iced up were during very humid periods when we were opening the door a lot which obviously lets a lot of warm moist air into the cooler. I've found that once the cooler has removed the water from air inside the chamber that there is very little chance of ice forming, and mould, and other such nasties.

The most important thing I've found is to make sure that you lower the temperature of the system slowly over a couple of hours if you have it turned off for a while. This allows the cooler to remove the moisture from the air without everything freezing up.

There was a thread about my system complete with pics somewhere on this site but I can't find it right now.

Regards,
garyd

 

[Yob]

Photos please... Lots of photo's

 

[booargy]

here it is Frankencooler
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/46207-frankencooler/

 

[redcane]

Awesome - looks way better finished than mine. I've just been spraying expanding foam into the gaps, and I don't have the overlap on the door. I think I'll definitely have to add mechanical cooling to mine eventually, but with the heatwave over it's sitting at good temperatures as it is!

 

[justsomeguy]

here it is Frankencooler
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/46207-frankencooler/

Yep, thats the one !

I wrote the damn thing then couldn't find it. :blink:

Thaven't really had any issues with it and SWMBO reckons it great when we have parties as there is sometimes enough room to store the overflow of food in there as well.

Regards,
jsg

 

[redcane]

So my cool room is mostly sealed, aside from a gap above the door. The brewing temps are pretty good for not having any active cooling, but the weather also isn't as hot as it was. The fermenters are staying about 6-8 degrees under the peak temperature in the shed, which is certainly a good help but won't quite cut it in the middle of summer. I think I'll have to sit them in a water bath with ice blocks, or get a fridge or air conditioner for next summer. We'll also see how the temps go in colder weather, I'm hoping the heat mats don't have to work too hard, and I've got a sparky coming to put a power point and light fitting into the cool room.

Last steps are to put a strip of styrofoam across the top of the door to block that gap and get some rubber strips to seal around the door when it closes.

 

[Sterlo]

many sleepless nights i have had dreaming of temp controlled rooms, ale rooms, lager rooms, conditioning rooms.....ahhhhh

Sterlo

 

[redcane]

Well I've now picked up a small cooling only window/wall mount air conditioner. I think I can get it through the cool room and shed wall, so it transfers heat from the cool room outside the shed. This should avoid further heating the oven that is the shed in summer, as well as being easier on the unit (it's condensor is in the cooler air outside the shed).

 

[wide eyed and legless]

I went down the same path as you redcane didn't have any cool room panels though, just got some poly insulation fitted it and lined the inside of the shed with pine lining board had a fridge in there during winter and the heat generated by the compressor kept it at around 15-16 C.
Now I have just bought a reverse cycle split a/c from Masters only $695 and after having a look around they were the cheapest I could find, just got to wait for my brother to come and install it.
The good thing about the reverse cycle I will be able to keep a temp of 18 C during winter and it wont be much more power usage if I put the fridge back in over next winter.

 

[Beermoose]

So I just made this work and wanted to share my tricks.

I wanted one area to keep my beer cold and to ferment,

There are two major problems. First is the inability of a window unit to go below 60f. Second is the propensity for a window unit to freeze up...

First, strip out the stock thermostat.
Next, install a line control external thermostat in its place. Locate the thermoprobe between the fins of the evaporator coil, toward the bottom of the unit. This will give you the ability to kill the compressor at 32f and prevent freeze up.

Second, using a second thermostat, place the thermoprobe in the area to be cooled. Plug the window unit into this thermostat.

As we are preventing the unit evaporator from going below 32F, the room will never get to 32F. But good beer should never be served this cold anyway.

Set thermostat number one at 32F - freeze up is now impossible! Also, capacity of unit is now restricted. You may need to use a larger unit in a shed.
Set thermostat two at target temp above 40F

Now, purchase a 20 gallon ice bucket.
Place carboy in the ice bucket
Install a 75 watt Eheim Jäger aquarium tank heater in the bucket.
Transfer cooled wort to carboy
Fill bucket with sterile solution until carboy is light, but not floating.
Set Jäger at desired fermentation temp. 65 to ?..F
To go below 65, you will need to use an external thermostat.
For diacetyl rest, raise temp on heater.


You can have several buckets at different temps!

Finally, you can place all your finished brew in the shed and keep at serving temp.

Brew,
ferment,
Chill
Drink
Repeat!!!

If I liked people as much as I like beer, I would never have time to brew!