Continuous Pumping Of Fermenting Wort To Reach Fg Faster?

[RdeVjun]

Yes Nick reminded me: some yeasts actually go well in the mid 20s, a cracking example is Wyeast Irish Ale. Guinness in Dublin ferment at 25 degrees and they crank out the beer in 2 days. I guess the Wyeast one must be historically related because my first Irish Red had a runaway fermentation and I had no ice bottles due to fridge dramas. It flew through the ferm in 3 days then the beer surface was calm as a millpond. So I kegged and bottled and it was beeoootiful Irish Red. I sent a bottle to Rde, he may concur.

Now I use that yeast for all sorts of other darker beers such as brown ales and stouts and it goes like the clappers. I reckon it would make perfect APAs and AAs as well in less than a week.

Yes indeed, I do concur- nothing untoward at all if my memory serves me correctly. You woulnd't have guessed there were any such issues and it was a pretty amazing Irish Red, not overly- hopped, decent malt character etc. :chug:

If the 1882 Thames Valley Ale II I've recently started using doesn't shape up then I'll be getting some 1084 Irish Ale pronto, but regardless, the strain has advanced up my list of got- to- try- this- for- myself yeasts. :icon_cheers:

 

[Thirsty Boy]

There are a number of flavour related issues involved with continuously stirred fermentations - it does cut down fermentation time, but the flavour issues are such that it doesn't get much of a run in pro-breweries, which it would if the problems were in any way easily surmountable.

Its not an "off the table" type proposition... but there are certainly issues you should research.

 

[AndrewQLD]

Yes Nick reminded me: some yeasts actually go well in the mid 20s, a cracking example is Wyeast Irish Ale. Guinness in Dublin ferment at 25 degrees and they crank out the beer in 2 days. I guess the Wyeast one must be historically related because my first Irish Red had a runaway fermentation and I had no ice bottles due to fridge dramas. It flew through the ferm in 3 days then the beer surface was calm as a millpond. So I kegged and bottled and it was beeoootiful Irish Red. I sent a bottle to Rde, he may concur.

Now I use that yeast for all sorts of other darker beers such as brown ales and stouts and it goes like the clappers. I reckon it would make perfect APAs and AAs as well in less than a week.

Wow 25c in Dublin, surely they would have to heat the ferment in winter to get to that temp? I'd love to see the data for that, 2 days seems a bit short even at that temp.

Andrew

 

[glaab]

and in summer :icon_cheers:

 

[Bandito]

So two posts have suggested that continuous pumping could produce off flavours. As usual, there is only one way to find out for sure.

The pumping I envisage wont involve continuous airation - the fermenter will be fitted with an airlock type system so during fermentation the top of the wort will only be in contact with co2. I have thought that perhaps commercials used this but have never asked. I sort of got the idea from my OG hydrometer samles that I try to take after inoculating with yeast and airating, then just leaving them on the bench - with lager yeast all the bubbles come from a layer of floculated yeast sitting on the bottom of the tube. So the concept is that if this compact cake can be broken up into tiny pieces and circulated through the wort, that the surface area would be greater and increase the rate of fermentation.

A similar system would be a magnetic stirrer with an airlock.

I will be trying it this weekend - just have to find 2 x 5L conicals, I'm thinking of the glass ones from the LHBS used upside down with holes drilled in the bottom or is that top?! The upside is that they are clear so can take pics and videos.

 

[berapnopod]

I've heard of the big boys stirring their fermenters by using a vertical temperature gradient that creates convection. The temperature gradient is reversed whent he desired FG is reached to flocculate the yeast out quickly.

I also heard of one homebrewer on HBD who did an experiment where he managed to get a stir plate big enough to sit a 5gal carboy/demijohn ontop. He said that the fermentation certainly was quicker and the FGs reached with stirring were generally a little lower than without stirring.

Berp.

 

[Nick JD]

Special Relativity states that he who brews twice as much makes it twice as fast.

 

[Bribie G]

Wow 25c in Dublin, surely they would have to heat the ferment in winter to get to that temp? I'd love to see the data for that, 2 days seems a bit short even at that temp.

Andrew

Going on Roger Protz there (Tidal Pete has my book at the moment so I can't quote chapter and verse). :icon_cheers:

Quick Edit: also found this site that has heard of the same information:

1084 Irish Ale Yeast

Wyeast says: Slight residual diacetyl and fruitiness; great for stouts. Clean, smooth, soft and full-bodied. Flocculation - medium; apparent attenuation - 71-75%. (62-72F).

Sort of like a slightly cleaner version of 1028, but with a touch more diacetyl. If fermented warm (>70F), seems to produce a pronounced tart fruitiness.

Claimed to be the Guinness strain. It is worth noting that Guinness supposedly allows their fermentation temperature to rise into the mid-70s. I wonder how much of the signature Guinness "tang" is actually due to the high fermentation temperature, and not to the (rumored) procedure of blending it with soured beer?

"mid 70s" would be around 24 so there may be some truth here, certainly it works well for me at 24 / 25.

Edit edit: On Google Books there's a fascinating article "A Bottle of Guinness Please" and it describes the process at the London Park Royal Brewery (now closed as they have gone back to Dublin) however:

Wort was 19 degrees coming out of the counterflow chillers. Allowed to rise naturally to 26 degrees.

1 day in the brewhouse
56 hours in fermentation
40 hours in conditioning
24 hours in the storage vat then sent to the packing lines for immediate consumption

Grain to brain in a week.

 

[groucho]

I have done some work at a very well known wine company and they ferment their "Premium" wine in OPEN fermenters and continously circulate the wine just like your picture.

 

[cdbrown]

Special Relativity states that he who brews twice as much makes it twice as fast.

And must drink it twice as fast getting twice as drunk.

 

[Nick JD]

25C is my go-to temperature for T-58. Fermentation takes 2-3 days. Great flavour and no perceptable fusels.

 

[AndrewQLD]

Going on Roger Protz there (Tidal Pete has my book at the moment so I can't quote chapter and verse). :icon_cheers:

Quick Edit: also found this site that has heard of the same information:

1084 Irish Ale Yeast

Wyeast says: Slight residual diacetyl and fruitiness; great for stouts. Clean, smooth, soft and full-bodied. Flocculation - medium; apparent attenuation - 71-75%. (62-72F).

Sort of like a slightly cleaner version of 1028, but with a touch more diacetyl. If fermented warm (>70F), seems to produce a pronounced tart fruitiness.

Claimed to be the Guinness strain. It is worth noting that Guinness supposedly allows their fermentation temperature to rise into the mid-70s. I wonder how much of the signature Guinness "tang" is actually due to the high fermentation temperature, and not to the (rumored) procedure of blending it with soured beer?

"mid 70s" would be around 24 so there may be some truth here, certainly it works well for me at 24 / 25.

Yes I've read that to. But I'm not to confident that it would be 100% factual considering the highlighted text above, don't forget that this is a homebrew article and really shows no proof of the claims made but is based on personal experience only. Not that there is anything wrong with personal experience, but I don't see any positive proof that Guinness ferment at 25 only supposition.

Wyeast have this to say

This yeast ferments well in dark roast worts. Beers fermented in the lower temperature range produce dry and crisp beers to fruity beers with nice complexity in the upper range. Ester production is enhanced with fermentation temperatures above 64 degrees F (18 C). Flocculation is low to moderate with filtration typically required.

Origin:
Flocculation: Medium
Attenuation: 71-75%
Temperature Range: 62-72F, 16-22C
Alcohol Tolerance: 10% ABV

However if you have experienced a marked tartness to your beers using this yeast at 25 I'd be interested to give it a go myself with a Stout to see if the Guinness tang comes through, got to love a Guinness.

Andrew

 

[Thirsty Boy]

So two posts have suggested that continuous pumping could produce off flavours. As usual, there is only one way to find out for sure.

The pumping I envisage wont involve continuous airation - the fermenter will be fitted with an airlock type system so during fermentation the top of the wort will only be in contact with co2. I have thought that perhaps commercials used this but have never asked. I sort of got the idea from my OG hydrometer samles that I try to take after inoculating with yeast and airating, then just leaving them on the bench - with lager yeast all the bubbles come from a layer of floculated yeast sitting on the bottom of the tube. So the concept is that if this compact cake can be broken up into tiny pieces and circulated through the wort, that the surface area would be greater and increase the rate of fermentation.

A similar system would be a magnetic stirrer with an airlock.

I will be trying it this weekend - just have to find 2 x 5L conicals, I'm thinking of the glass ones from the LHBS used upside down with holes drilled in the bottom or is that top?! The upside is that they are clear so can take pics and videos.

Not really the only way - it has all been done before. Both at a home and on a commercial scale, so you could try to learn from other people's experience instead. There are commercial examples, experiments conducted, papers written. You just need to go look for them.

You can go ahead and try it if you want... there isn't any question that it is going to work though. It will - and will almost certainly produce palatable beer (unless you stuff it up) but you will find that certain flavour issues are more prevalent in stirred fermentations than in basic ones, certain problems will be harder to overcome, certain issues harder to address; and other things will work better. Until you have done a lot of brewing, and done it both ways, you probably wont even notice what they are.

I have noticed that you frequently seem to prefer to not take advice that doesn't match what you have decided you would like to be the truth - so I suspect rather strongly that you will give this a go anyway. I hope it works well. But the most likely result is that you will be spending time, money and effort to do something that will make it somewhat more difficult for you to make a high quality beer.

Not trying to stifle your creativity - just letting you know that its a far from new idea that mostly isn't used because its more trouble than the minor benefits are worth - if you still want to play, who the hell am I to tell you that you shouldn't.

 

[Bandito]

Not really the only way - it has all been done before. Both at a home and on a commercial scale, so you could try to learn from other people's experience instead. There are commercial examples, experiments conducted, papers written. You just need to go look for them.

Thanks Thirsty, I will look for them over the weekend.