Cold Break Experiment

[hazard]

Bribie, how's the experiment going - any updates? In particular, I'm keen to hear if you notice difference in foam formation/ retention.

After reading too much stuff on the internet, I recently decided that i should exclude cold break from the fermenter. Traditionally, afetr chilling (immersion chiller) then whirlpooling, I rack as much clear beer from the kettle until I start picking up break, then strain remaining wort into the fermenter through a kitchen sieve. This keeps hops out of the fermenter, but maybe some break material gets through. So i changed my process 3 or 4 brews ago to this: after racking clear beer, I tipped the remaining wort + trub (about 4 L) into a sanitised container, then let settle in the fridge for a few days. Then decant clear wort off the trub and add to the fermenter.

Unfortunately my brewing is like my tax return - records are hazy at best. So can't say for sure which brews have suffered this process (I also find unlabelled jars of yeast in the fridge too, a bit annoying especially because I can't blame anyone else but me). Anyway, what I have also found recently is that my last few brews don't have any head. There is carbonation, and the beer will foam slightly on pouring, then its like a glass of coke, you can see the bubbles rising and hear them popping, but no foam.

Now as we can see from Nick's note below, cold break is mainly protein. And what is it beer that causes foam - protein! So I am guessing that total exclusion of cold break is leading to lousy foaming.

To test this, last brew I went back to my previous process, made sure I got lots of break into the fermenter. Just bottled this on the weekend so will be a few weeks until I can verify my hypothesis, but hope to get some further dat from your experiment.

 

[Bribie G]

I kegged the two on Saturday night and they are gassing up in the kegerator. As I kegged straight out of lagering at 3% it was a good opportunity to check for differences in appearance, they both looked identical in the glass and aroma was the same. Forgot to take a hydro reading for final attenuation, I can do that anytime with some flattened beer.

Again, I noticed that the cold break beer seemed to have somehow a 'fuller' richer flavour than the non coldie but it's too early in the piece and beers that have tasted like crap out of lagering have scrubbed up beautifully in the keg in the past. Also being a XXXX clone you can't expect too much out of flat green beer at this stage What I want to do is take a couple of CPBF bottles of each to the next Bris club meeting Thursday fortnight and see if I can arrange a wee tasting panel in advance.

I'll post again at the end of the week with any less 'structured' findings if there's anything worth posting :icon_cheers:

 

[beerdrinkingbob]

Hey Bribie,

Very novice question, I know what hot break looks like, well i think (skin etc that can be seen on top of the boil), not cold break though?? Is it the cloudy stuff at the bottom of the pot, I haven't been putting this in my brews but I'm loosing as much as 3 and 4 ltrs from 19. Kinda hoping the I have been leaving it out incorrectly!

Good thread too, cheers mate :super:

 

[unrealeous]

Very novice question, I know what hot break looks like, well i think (skin etc that can be seen on top of the boil), not cold break though?? Is it the cloudy stuff at the bottom of the pot, I haven't been putting this in my brews but I'm loosing as much as 3 and 4 ltrs from 19. Kinda hoping the I have been leaving it out incorrectly!

Good pictures of it here - http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic....15c8aa59045ed96

 

[Nick JD]

Hey Bribie,

Very novice question, I know what hot break looks like, well i think (skin etc that can be seen on top of the boil), not cold break though?? Is it the cloudy stuff at the bottom of the pot, I haven't been putting this in my brews but I'm loosing as much as 3 and 4 ltrs from 19. Kinda hoping the I have been leaving it out incorrectly!

Good thread too, cheers mate :super:

If ya get some voile and line a colander with it, and pour the break + wort into it and wait for an hour the running collected into the bowl underneath it are clear, with a very fine break material at the bottom that did get through the voile. This settles out and you can pour off about 90% of the collected wort.

I pour it into a pot and bring it to the boil, cover it in gladwrap and when it's cooled, add it to the fermenter. Almost zero losses.

 

[haysie]

Good pictures of it here - http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic....15c8aa59045ed96

Those pictures look more like hop trob than break. Having a read though, he claims to have used flowers with a braided p/up.

Have a look here

pic 1 is very similar i.e hot break and hop trub, the next pic = cold break

 

[BjornJ]

Interesting experiment, BribieG, thanks for taking the time to post it.
Just like your hop tea experiment it opens for interesting questions around the reasons for things we all do because we read it somewhere.
Not saying it's right or wrong to include cold break (because I have no idea :lol: ) but good work on doing the actual test.

When I brew I always throw out 2.5 litres from my 40 litre Birko Urn left in the urn after the tap stop running with the cold break.
Your experiment may open for using this in the fermenter, OR keep throwing it out because I have read it's bad to add cold break, hehe.

Let us know how it goes, looking forward to the blind testing.

thanks
Bjorn

 

[beerdrinkingbob]

Thanks boys,

That's the Stuff, hoping even more now that the end result of this thread is a good one, for cold break I mean :drinks:

Nick thanks for the tip too, Is the reason you boil it again so u don't chance infection, sorry if this take it slightly :icon_offtopic:

 

[Bribie G]

Drinkin buddy from round the corner and I had a taste out of the 2 kegs - they are gassed now and running almost clear - and I didn't tell him they were from the same batch. They have definitely turned out as two quite different tasting beers. Identical colour and clarity, but the cold break brew has a lingering bitterness (not in a bad way) and somehow a more 'assertive' body and mouthfeel, whilst the non cold break beer is definitely lighter in body and less bitter. I wonder if the polyphenol-lipid complex which is Cold Break absorbs a lot of the AAs and hop oils which somehow get 'liberated' again during fermentation?
The difference in flavour is almost analagous to having a swig of Coopers Pale Ale, then a swig of Coopers Sparkling Ale. It really hits you, and it's a hard thing to pin down exactly what it is.

Interesting tasting test at BABBs in a couple of weeks :icon_cheers: I'll have to get a few volunteers rounded up before the meeting.

 

[beerbrewer76543]

+1 awesome sharing of your experiment

it wouldn't be a credible thread without at least one +1 in it

 

[Nick JD]

Drinkin buddy from round the corner and I had a taste out of the 2 kegs - they are gassed now and running almost clear - and I didn't tell him they were from the same batch. They have definitely turned out as two quite different tasting beers. Identical colour and clarity, but the cold break brew has a lingering bitterness (not in a bad way) and somehow a more 'assertive' body and mouthfeel, whilst the non cold break beer is definitely lighter in body and less bitter. I wonder if the polyphenol-lipid complex which is Cold Break absorbs a lot of the AAs and hop oils which somehow get 'liberated' again during fermentation?
The difference in flavour is almost analagous to having a swig of Coopers Pale Ale, then a swig of Coopers Sparkling Ale. It really hits you, and it's a hard thing to pin down exactly what it is.

Interesting tasting test at BABBs in a couple of weeks :icon_cheers: I'll have to get a few volunteers rounded up before the meeting.

Top work, mate! I'm glad to hear there's a difference, could you keep a bottle or two of the kegs to taste test them both in say, two months? I think that might be where leaving cold break out might make a difference too.

Bob - yeah, I boil it because it sits on the bench for an hour collecting dust (with yeast and bacteria cities living on them) and sneezes.

 

[hazard]

Drinkin buddy from round the corner and I had a taste out of the 2 kegs - they are gassed now and running almost clear - and I didn't tell him they were from the same batch. They have definitely turned out as two quite different tasting beers. Identical colour and clarity, but the cold break brew has a lingering bitterness (not in a bad way) and somehow a more 'assertive' body and mouthfeel, whilst the non cold break beer is definitely lighter in body and less bitter. I wonder if the polyphenol-lipid complex which is Cold Break absorbs a lot of the AAs and hop oils which somehow get 'liberated' again during fermentation?
The difference in flavour is almost analagous to having a swig of Coopers Pale Ale, then a swig of Coopers Sparkling Ale. It really hits you, and it's a hard thing to pin down exactly what it is.

Interesting tasting test at BABBs in a couple of weeks :icon_cheers: I'll have to get a few volunteers rounded up before the meeting.

Intersting, will be good to see more results.

But back to my question in post #41 if i may - is there any difference in foaming properties?

 

[felten]

have you tried the blind triangle test?

 

[sandjeep457]

Good, I like clean beers with no bitter after taste - so its not cold break 4 me.

thanks for the test Bribie man.

 

[haysie]

I give a few stars to BG for the contribution. Alas the results are pissing in the wind arnt they? unless as felten mentioned, a triangular!
I dont wear the bitterness for one minute as being fact, moreso to feed this thread. Too many variables to be taken serious IMO, . I read ithe thread and followed it and my thoughts were. waste of time n effort. Nothings proven, mostly heresay on the part of one lousy "experiment".
As noted in the thread by BG, the same volume wasnt fermented hence the yeast count is different hence the beer is different.
If I was to measure my cold break? at what volume and at what dilution should I bother FFS?

edit, the fullstops

 

[Bribie G]

Same volume was fermented, but yield different due to bigger trub in #2. Initial yeast count would have been almost identical.
As stated, results tentative until proper testing at BABBs meeting.
Pollux was up on holiday the other day and was very surprised at diff between the beers but as mentioned this is indeed subjective and preliminary findings.

 

[BjornJ]

Pollux was there? Did he bring any "test bottles" back for the Sydney crowd?



thanks
Bjorn

 

[Pollux]

Sorry Bjorn, we didn't happen to think of that....

I have to say, from my subjective point of view I found the beer with cold break to taste a bit "meatier" it was almost as if the non CB was a watered down version of the CB one......

Otherwise the two beers were identical, head retention, lacing, level of haze (near nil) except the CB beer had in my opinion a slightly more copper tone.

 

[Bribie G]

I took bottles of each down to BABBs tonight and about 7 people tried the beers without knowing which was which. It was not possible to do a blind triangle due to the nature of the venue but the general opinion was that the beers were very similar indeed but on balance most found the Cold Break one to be slightly more 'assertive'. As Ross pointed out, this could be due to the fermenter #2 getting the bulk of any hop material remaining in the cubes which could add a bit more hop flavour to #2. As the beers mature, subjectively they do seem to be less different than initially.

Aroma, clarity, colour, foam, lacing etc all indistinguishable but just that wee bit of a difference in the aftertaste and a very slight difference in mouthfeel. Which again could be attributable to more lingering hop in the cold break beer. I wonder as well if cold break, being a protein/lipid mixture might absorb a percent or two of hop oils etc, removing them from the clear part of the wort, that then get released back into the beer during fermentation?

I'm tending now to the opinion: "cold break? probably nothing to be concerned about".

 

[bcp]

Bribieg, is there ANY discernible difference in head or head retention?

That's an association i've heard before, so interested to know.