Cold Break Experiment

[Sammus]

Why on earth would you not get a cold break in no-chill? You do.

I guess its residual memories from reading Howtobrew so long ago. JP says it at the top of http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter7-4.html

though his reference http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backi....2/barchet.html doesn't mention the need to rapid cool, at least I couldn't see it in my skim over...

 

[Bribie G]

I reckon John Palmer is to a certain extent talking out of his whoopsie when he discusses no chilling methods. Also I bet he considers BIAB the work of the Devil :lol:
Mate some of the 'greats' of the brew world such as the great Graham Wheeler and Roger Protz can get it wrong and the pom forums certainly let them know about it. Beauty of forums.

 

[felten]

I wonder if that info has changed since the 1st edition of his book (11 years ago?), he's up to the 3rd edition now.

 

[Sammus]

I reckon John Palmer is to a certain extent talking out of his whoopsie when he discusses no chilling methods. Also I bet he considers BIAB the work of the Devil :lol:
Mate some of the 'greats' of the brew world such as the great Graham Wheeler and Roger Protz can get it wrong and the pom forums certainly let them know about it. Beauty of forums.

yeah am well aware of their fallibility, was just pointing out where I got the idea. After reading his reference I'm not really convinced as I was. But to be fair, BIAB is the work of the devil

 

[sandjeep457]

JP does say to chill as fast as possible in the book I ahve - it is the latest version.

 

[ekul]

I have set up an experiment of my own.
I also have a few litres of trub left in the bottom of my kettle. I know there is more beer there but it has so much break in it its not funny.

Anyway, the last time i made a batch up i was going to collect the last 6 litres of break and let it settle. However when i got to the break a sizeable amount of soot from the side of my pot fell in so idecided not to collect it.

Just for laughs i collected a 3L bottle worth of the breaky material to see how much beer i'm missing out on. The 3L bottle settled into about 500ml break and 2L beer.
After it had settled out i realised that i had a little bit of yeast cake left over in a 100mL measuring cylinder cause i'd just bottled. Thinking of bribie's experiment i decided to chuck that in. I've been away for the weekend but i just came back and it is fermenting fantastically. I will bottle it when its done and then let everyone know the results.

There are a few problems with this experiment though.
1. A heap of soot fell in the kettle, i tried to miss it but maybe a little went in. This may affect flavour.
2. I can't remember how sanitary i was with it all, i know the yeast cake bit i through in was exposed to air for a good hour at least, and i may have even sipped out of it.
3. No temp control for the 3L bottle, and its been sitting in a semi light place


Even if this experiment fails i will try again. If a wort with 30% break can ferment out with little worries then a larger wort should be fine. My only worry is when i harvest the yeast cake i will be collecting the break as well.

Any news on your experiment bribie?

 

[Bribie G]

Quick tea break at work so I'll be swift.

Running a bit late with the experiment, I've been tied up with comp brews. However I go tthe double batch done last night - a batch of XXX golden lager of the Castlemaine Perkins persuasion

This morning the bulk of the clear wort with some cold break went into ferm 1 and the reast into ferm 2, I'm fermenting it mid ale temp with S-189 so monitoring, and should have something to report in next few days.

Cheers
BribieG

 

[rich_lamb]

Good work Bribie, the more experimentation the better, and I hope we learn something from this one.

I'm not sure if we aren't all talking around different things on the subject of cold break. My understanding from my own brewing is that you want to precipitate as much of it as possible prior to and during the ferment, to reduce haze, increase stability and most importantly improve flavour in the final beer.
Having the break present in the fermenter should have no large effect.
I've definitely noticed reduced break and lower flavour quality in my beer since going to no-chill about 2 years ago, and I'll be going to a plate chiller soonish, not to remove the break from the fermentor but to precipitate it.

Now, this assumes there is some theory to removing the break from suspension by the speed of chilling (?). If that's the case then this experiment may not show up much as with no-chill you won't separate out much of the break in the space of a day or two (there will still be a lot either dissolved or in suspension).
So I eagerly await your results!

Oh, like the new avatar - haven't been on for a while so it's new to me.

 

[Bribie G]

Day 2
16 degrees.


#1 good krausen, almost white like the head on a beer
#2 good krausen, fair amount of brown / tan crud in the krausen as can be expected

If cold break is a good yeast booster, interested to see which one finishes first. So far the krausens are running neck and neck.

 

[ekul]

I thought i'd updated my experiment but apparently i haven't. The 3L bottle i had my experiment in exploded! I Had squeezed all the air out in the morning and must've sealed the lid on too tight. When i came back a few hours later there was only a mess remaining. So it must've been fermenting pretty hard to break the plastic.

I am gong to repeat this experiment in more sterile condtions with temp control. Then i will bottle and post tasting results. My beer will contain 30% break (both) and the rest wort.

I'm going to use the rest of the break to play around with trying to make it floc harder, sick of losing all that good waort mixed up in the break.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Ekul - just slightly off track here, but relevant for your sentiments if not your intentions with this experiment.

Take your break/beer mixture, pour it into a funnel with a tea towel lining it, recirc a little till it runs bright, walk away for teh hour or so it will take to filter through.

Quick re-boil of the wort to sterilize and you have perfect starter, force test etc etc wort to play with.

Did it for ages.

TB

 

[MitchDudarko]

I can't wait to see the results of this one.

 

[haysie]

Blind triangles first please.... No use trying to work out what the differences are if in a proper test the tasters can't even tell the beers apart.

TB

I agree with blind first, no final gravities known of course, as i assume the yeast count isnt accurate between the two. My betting brain says the cold break cube wins only for the 50 50 reasoning, my brewing brain says cold break will win, its a nutrient, a flocca of shite and with that in mind. lower f/g`s.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Yep, and proper triangle ones too... Preferably with multiple tasters and multiple rounds of tasting. Crunch the numbers... If the tasters can tell them apart statistically more often than chance... Then the beers are meaningfully different. Then you can start tasting and asking how and why they are different (of course ignoring the opinion of any tasters who weren't able to do better than chance on the triangle tests)

 

[jayse]

Snipped>
... I'll be using that kettle fining we can't discuss on AHB

What? unless its made from sunn bears or something else illegal or maybe morally wrong I can't see why such a thing can be.

I don't expect a response as I am sure what ever the reason its complete bullshit. Is the reason simply because it causes the idiots to pipe up and post the ussual slanging matches?

Either way i don't really care, sorry for the off topic just thought it stupid.

Good luck with the experiment, you can send a bottle of each this way if you want any extra feedback.

Cheers
Jayse

 

[Bribie G]

Primary finished, I raised the beers to 19 degrees for a couple of days then into cubes for a couple of weeks of lagering.

To recap, #1 is the little or no cold break, #2 got a lot more.

During fermentation, both beers kept perfect pace with each other, bloop for bloop through the airlocks (yes I know we are talking kittens airlocks here but I have a good seal)
Both have attenuated identically to just at tad below 1010.

Most noticeable is the layer of cake on the bottom.

#2 would have to have at least twice the sludge in the bottom of the fermenter.

And on racking to lagering cube, the resulting difference in yield is quite noticeable.

There is a slight difference in taste, at this stage. #1 seems to be a bit sharper and dryer, #2 seems somehow "fuller" and more bready. Early days.

So it's obvious that the yeast cake is not just yeast, it contains a lot of ex-cold-break material. So with a typical AG brew, if you pitch yeast cake you are not just pitching yeast, you are also pitching some second hand cold break debris - which bears thinking about.
The "good yeast nutrient" theory doesn't seem to be borne out here, the two beers fermented and attenuated in tandem, to virtually identical gravity.

So at the current stage : all I can conclude from this so far is that cold break steals green beer volume.
It's very hard to remove cold break from a single brew as it's quite fluffy.
However when it's been through a fermentation it seems to 'curdle' and become far more flocculent. Here's a pic of the glass of sludge I drew off to "clear the throat" of the fermenter before running to lagering cube:

After 20 mins or so it's starting to form a distinct layer. So it's got me thinking that - until we see what the final flavour, clarity and stability is then an idea could be to (initially) brew a litre or more over the desired 'yield' to get a full cube for lagering, and leave the cold break-derived material behind when you rack to secondary or lagering.

More in 2 weeks.

 

[RobW]

So it's got me thinking that - until we see what the final flavour, clarity and stability is then an idea could be to (initially) brew a litre or more over the desired 'yield' to get a full cube for lagering, and leave the cold break-derived material behind when you rack to secondary or lagering.

More in 2 weeks.

That's what I do, except I lager in kegs. My fermenter volume is 25l and I draw the first 1 or 2 litres into a plastic fruit juice bottle, then fill the keg with the clearer middle part and run the remainder into a second plastic bottle. The 2 fruit juice bottles go back into the fridge to settle overnight. The clear beer can be poured off the break & trub and bottled normally (usually end up with about 6 - 8 long necks).

 

[stm]

Excellent work to date Bribie.

"So at the current stage : all I can conclude from this so far is that cold break steals green beer volume"

Not really because you got a lot more volume into the fermenter(s) by chucking in all the wort including break material. Less wort loss but more trub loss.

 

[bcp]

So it's obvious that the yeast cake is not just yeast, it contains a lot of ex-cold-break material. So with a typical AG brew, if you pitch yeast cake you are not just pitching yeast, you are also pitching some second hand cold break debris - which bears thinking about.
The "good yeast nutrient" theory doesn't seem to be borne out here, the two beers fermented and attenuated in tandem, to virtually identical gravity.

Help me understand your conclusion...
You're attributing the higher yeast cake to a 'lot of ex-cold-break material' because:
i. The yeast cake is bigger, and
ii. They fermented at the same rate & to the same attenuation?

Are there alternative hypotheses? Such as... well let me try one -
* Yeast apparently consumes cold break (but i don't know if that means some components of it or all of it)
* Therefore there could actually be more yeast and reduced quantities of cold break
* But the additional yeast for another undetermined reason didn't result in a faster fermentation or greater attenuation. (eg, new yeast busy with cold break, same oxygen levels meant it couldn't attenuate further...)

Is that also still wildly possible?

Of course your original conclusion sounds far more likely, i'd just love to know what's really happened to the cold break - whether it's still all there or something has changed. Without being able to put it under the microscope...

 

[Nick JD]

Brewing Science and Practice says that this is roughly what's in Cold break.

Proteinaceous matter 45-75%
Polyphenols 10-30%
Carbohydrates 20-30%
Ash 2-3%