Clarify My Understanding Of Specifics.

[uncleBez]

heat belt.....hmmm, not a fan (no pun intended). If its cold enough to use a brew belt, then its cold enough to brew lagers, so brew lagers,

put your brew belt away at the back of the drawer, just in case, i dont think you will need it again.

Cool. I mentioned the heat belt just to show how this forum has helped my understanding how I definately don't think i will
be using it. And I think I like lagers. How I am not the discerning of taste yet.
I was brought up on tooheys new with my Dad, and mate of mine has introduced my to a number of german beers like
bitbuger and such which I like also. I think my taste is quite ecclectic..... thats a long way of saying id like to give
lagers a go. Your right I will put the heat belt in the back of the drawer!

On the topic of taste. What I do know is I don't like the dark beers like, Tooheys Old, Guiness and the odd stout I have tried.
Actually in my experience the stouts I have had have given me a killer headache and make me cranky after like just one glass full.


I am looking forward to experimenting and trying many different styles and getting a feel for what I do and dont like.

 

[uncleBez]

So the brew seems to coming along quite well.
The hyrdometer dropped from 1.011 to 1.009 overnight and the bitterness I was tasting yesterday
has reduced also (it was quite bitter yesterday).
The airlocks has as much as stalled so I'll be keeping an eye on it for the next few days, and then at least a week before
I bottle.

Last time I made brews, I was impatient to get it finished. This time I am impatient to get it into bottles, so I can start
another!

 

[kelbygreen]

leave it a little longer. I wait about 8-10 days before taking a hydro reading. I used to do it every day from day 5 and by the time I got 3 consecutive readings the beer was 1lt less So I take it on day 8 and day 10 and if they are the same cold condition for about 4-7 days. only done this with last 3 brews and they are heaps better, Oh and I also quick chill my wort that seems to help bitterness but a thing you dont have to worry with kits.

You will find most of aussie beers even toohyes new (i think) is lager maybe not true lagers but lager styles. I love home brew now all other beer tastes bland and not to mention the price lol. This forum will help alot read around ask some questions and you will be on your way to making very drinkable beers.

I think you will find It wont drop to much more then 1.009 but as said it only makes better beer if you can leave it. in 3 days if its still 1.009 and you got a spare fridge put it in and cool it to about 0-4 deg for 4-7 days will clear and condition the beer better. If not leaving it without a fridge does the same but wont be as clear.

 

[rendo]

U guys have no idea how happy this makes me :super:

I'm almost in agreement with Rendo.

 

[uncleBez]

ok, So this is getting exciting.

some more updates.

I took another gravity reading this morning, and its reading as 1.010 (yesterday 1.009) so I am taking this has
no change as i must have misread one of them (or there were a few more bubbles clinging to the hydrometer yesterday.

I think the taste has improved slightly again, hard to tell (it definately isn't any worse).

The temp in the garage has dropped to 19degress and the fermenter along with it. (its definately colder in sydney the
last couple days)
I think this is a good thing?

So my plan stays the same, as I don't have a spare fridge
I will leave it where it is until next tuesday before I bottle.
(Thinking about laying wet towels over it, and using ice bricks to bring the temp down further, is it worth the effort?


Ok, a number of you have answered some of my questions re finings and mentioned cold condition along with it.
Is there any point in using finings if your not c/c'ing ? (Not that I will be this time around, I would rather rack and
cold condition there, but I dont have another drum (unless I get one in the next week, but the budgets tight and I should
get a pretty decent brew regardless.)

I calculated the ABV to be around 4.7% (from my memory, i have to look it up) So It seems the tooheys liquid sugar's not
causing any major probs.

 

[Hatchy]

If you don't have a spare fridge then I'm guessing you'll struggle to get any benefit from cold conditioning with ice blocks & wet towels. I've never tried it & other blokes may say it's a good idea. I've never used finings so can't comment on that either. If you have or can get a 2nd fermenter then I'd suggest bulk priming. I've found it to be the easiest way to carb bottles.

 

[Northside Novice]

Hi Mate, I tried a brew using just two cans of coopers lager and coopers yeast.
I put it in a dark coolish cupboard around 20*c for four weeks. Only took three sg readings one og 1042, one at two weeks 1011, and final of 1008 at four weeks. I was super cautious not to bump or disturb fermenter , treated it like a sleeping bear. Bottled from cupboard trying very carefully not to disturb sediment, using coopers carb. drops and stored bottles back in cupboard for another four weeks. (no finnings or racking or cold conditioning)

The finished product was very clear and tasted bloody nice and i was very suprised how much like a nice lager it was

A really no fuss sort of way to get to that larger-ish tasting place! Even if it, deep down, thinks its an ale :icon_cheers:

 

[rendo]

ok, So this is getting exciting.

now you're hooked hold on...

I took another gravity reading this morning, and its reading as 1.010 (yesterday 1.009) so I am taking this has
no change as i must have misread one of them (or there were a few more bubbles clinging to the hydrometer yesterday.

I think the taste has improved slightly again, hard to tell (it definately isn't any worse).

The temp in the garage has dropped to 19degress and the fermenter along with it. (its definately colder in sydney the
last couple days)
I think this is a good thing?

With those readings it basically means it is close to finishing, if not finished already. The taste wouldnt have got worse, unless infected or something nasty like that, but if it were infected, u'd probably notice something odd, off, etc. If it tastes nice then it is a really good sign
The temps in syd at the moment = bloody cold at night. This is FINE. Even more reason to be comfortable to leave it longer to the weekend, tues etc...If it were majorly hot (eg middle of summer) then possibly it would be a bad idea to leave it longer.

So my plan stays the same, as I don't have a spare fridge
I will leave it where it is until next tuesday before I bottle.
(Thinking about laying wet towels over it, and using ice bricks to bring the temp down further, is it worth the effort?

A fridge is a nice to have, I have made plenty of nice beers without a fridge. In time Bez. Leaving to next tuesday will be worth it. Beer will be clearer, less yeast taste in the beer. Given the current temps dont worry about the wet towels and ice blocks (IMO). Diminishing returns mate in other words, i dont think it would be worth the effort. We all seem to like to go overboard to make a good beer, me totally included, but you dont want to have to make it an onerous task (just yet). YOu have plenty of time to build up the obsession and compulsion to chase the elusive perfect beer. May your obsessions develop over time as you come to good grips with the foundation stuff.

Ok, a number of you have answered some of my questions re finings and mentioned cold condition along with it.
Is there any point in using finings if your not c/c'ing ? (Not that I will be this time around, I would rather rack and
cold condition there, but I dont have another drum (unless I get one in the next week, but the budgets tight and I should
get a pretty decent brew regardless.)

I calculated the ABV to be around 4.7% (from my memory, i have to look it up) So It seems the tooheys liquid sugar's not
causing any major probs.

I think finings for sure, its easy, you WILL get clear (bad pun) benefit from it. Do it for sure. If you are bottling on tues, then add finings on sat, latest sunday.

well done

 

[uncleBez]

I went out and visited my LHS the country brewer and thornleigh.

After a good long chat with the owner their. I have come home and bottled my brew.
The hydrometer has been reading 1.010 for 4 days now and he said 'If your hydrometer is saying
fermentation has stopped them bottle it." Then I missed his exact words but it was basically that I was
risking oxygenation if I left it too much longer.

I'm already keen to get on a do another one, so he pushed my over the line.
Interesting that there wasn't as much sediment in the bottom of the fermenter that I remember from
my other attempts a couple of years ago (LHS mentioned the the yeast in the coopers pale ale is aimed
at being a very clear yeast, so that might explain it).

Hard to tell exactly what the beer will taste like once carbonated and chilled but it seems to not taste
to bad, it did seem very clear running through the bottler, and its a little bitter and I think so it should be.

I looking forward to cracking one open in a couple of weeks.

I have picked up a low carb kit (country brewer has put the kit together themselves) from him (Not so much that I want a low carb beer, but rather my wife likes pure blonde
and he reckons she should like this also, so we can share )

It comes with a tin of malt, and also some grain, so I a looking forward also to a more sophisticated process this time
around.

 

[manticle]

I respectfully disagree with your LHBS guy. Except during the hottest parts of summer (with my primitive methods of temp control) I have found beer benefits from longer in primary or secondary. I normally leave mine around a week after ferment has finished and then another 5-7 days cold conditioned. Apart from a couple that suffered from 40 degree weather, my beer improved markedly since I started doing this. obviously with temp control in a fridge those summer days would be less of an issue.

Finings work very well with cold conditioning but they will help clear a beer even without it.

 

[Siborg]

I respectfully disagree with your LHBS guy. Except during the hottest parts of summer (with my primitive methods of temp control) I have found beer benefits from longer in primary or secondary. I normally leave mine around a week after ferment has finished and then another 5-7 days cold conditioned. Apart from a couple that suffered from 40 degree weather, my beer improved markedly since I started doing this. obviously with temp control in a fridge those summer days would be less of an issue.

Finings work very well with cold conditioning but they will help clear a beer even without it.

I agree with you there. I have read some stuff that suggests you need to bottle as soon as fermentation is finished. However, common practice proves otherwise. Ask how many people leave their beer in primary for a week or so after fermentation has finished, and the answer would be most of them. I've done this a few times (around a week of cold crashing, or until I can't stand to wait anymore ) and have had decent beer.

 

[rendo]

I went out and visited my LHS the country brewer and thornleigh.

Been there a few times, nice guy!

After a good long chat with the owner their. I have come home and bottled my brew.
The hydrometer has been reading 1.010 for 4 days now and he said 'If your hydrometer is saying
fermentation has stopped them bottle it." Then I missed his exact words but it was basically that I was
risking oxygenation if I left it too much longer.

I totally agree with manticle and kindly totally disagree with his view.

I'm already keen to get on a do another one, so he pushed my over the line.

Its a can/could/possibly be a fine line for a LHBS in giving advice vs encouraging sales. He has to make money to survive, so he needs people to buy stuff, but he has to give sound advice or people wont return. He HAS given u sound advice, but i believe (know) that to produce even BETTER beer that waiting that extra time works a treat. However, you did REALLY well to wait this long, so well done. The beer will be just fine! I am looking forward to hearing what your brew tastes like in a week, a month and if it lasts to 2-3 months. It will change over time. Please do tell and we can help assist further if you would like

It comes with a tin of malt, and also some grain, so I a looking forward also to a more sophisticated process this time
around.

It comes with grain? GREAT......BUT....can you tell me/us exactly what you have been given and what your instructions are? Siborg has an interesting (not so tasty) experience with grain and bad advice from a LHBS a while back.

Hoping to help you in making not just good beer, but great beer...

If you can manage it, hold off brewing until you let us know your ingredients and instructions and see what we have to say. Sometimes you will get conflicting views, but you should at least get prevention against making grave mistakes, eg boiling grain!!

CHEERS!!!

(ps....i hope you havent been told to boil the grain for 20mins! )

 

[uncleBez]

I respectfully disagree with your LHBS guy. Except during the hottest parts of summer (with my primitive methods of temp control) I have found beer benefits from longer in primary or secondary. I normally leave mine around a week after ferment has finished and then another 5-7 days cold conditioned. Apart from a couple that suffered from 40 degree weather, my beer improved markedly since I started doing this. obviously with temp control in a fridge those summer days would be less of an issue.

Finings work very well with cold conditioning but they will help clear a beer even without it.

I thought I should have listened to you, there seemed to be so much common agreement with your view on this on this forum.
Unfortunately my eagerness to get another brew underway combined with the advice from the LHBS yesterday and I caved .

I'll build up a surplus of beer, and get hold of another fermenter and make an effort to listen to you further on this.
I think I going to get a good beer and maybe have sacrificed a great beer to my impatience... Hey is all a learning experience.
Its a been a few years since I brewed anything and I guess the upshot is I will better able to recognise the improvement should I make another beer
of the same recipe soon and leave it longer.

 

[jiesu]

PROVERB TIME!!!!!!


A wise man once said. Ask ten homebrewers how to brew a beer and you will get eleven different methods.

Its not wrong to bottle once fermentaion stops but generally around these parts people find you get a clearer and more rounded/ mellowed beer from letting it age for a week or two before bottling. However it is wrong that the beer will get oxygenated unless you are doing an open air fermentation. Because your fermenter is all partially sealed no air should be able to get into the beer from the outside air and the co2 will form a layer of gas over your beer and protect it from oxygenating. As far as I am aware the only thing that will hurt your beer after fermentation is complete is autolosis (spelt incorrectly here) which is the death of the yeast, however this takes considerably longer then a week it has been argued that it will take up to three months to kick in. but I would bottle within a month to be sure.

 

[uncleBez]

Been there a few times, nice guy!

Yeah he was. Very nice guy.

I totally agree with manticle and kindly totally disagree with his view.

Oh well. whats done is done, and I will learn.

Its a can/could/possibly be a fine line for a LHBS in giving advice vs encouraging sales. He has to make money to survive, so he needs people to buy stuff, but he has to give sound advice or people wont return. He HAS given u sound advice, but i believe (know) that to produce even BETTER beer that waiting that extra time works a treat. However, you did REALLY well to wait this long, so well done. The beer will be just fine! I am looking forward to hearing what your brew tastes like in a week, a month and if it lasts to 2-3 months. It will change over time. Please do tell and we can help assist further if you would like

Thanks for the encouragement. Its funny.. I mentioned to my wife as we left that I think he may have been one of the smoothest salesmen I have come
across in quite some time (The sign of a good salesman is that you leave feeling satisfied with your purchase, thinking what a wonderfull helpfull and nice guy
that was. Totally unaware that you've been sold.)

It comes with grain? GREAT......BUT....can you tell me/us exactly what you have been given and what your instructions are? Siborg has an interesting (not so tasty) experience with grain and bad advice from a LHBS a while back.

Hoping to help you in making not just good beer, but great beer...
...
(ps....i hope you havent been told to boil the grain for 20mins! )

No boiling of grain in instructions on either the box, or the amendments.

He is the product on the country brewers website (doesn't tell you much).
Country Brewer DeCarb Kits


I haven't been given specifics on the ingredients (I am trusting he has given me good advice, otherwise, regardless of how nice he his, I will be going
elsewhere should I end up with crap beer!)

ok so.. in the box.

1 x tin of liquid malt (which I was told already has dry enzyme mixed in... not so sure about this.. and I didin't get the kit because its low carb, but because
my wife likes the taste of pure blonde and so, he suggested this for that reason alone).

1 x bag of a mixture of sugars/dry malt (The bottom half has is a very fine white powder and the top half is a slightly courser brown powder).
(I asked him what was in them, and he said they don't give the ingredients of the kits because its IP. (Maybe he doesn't know)).
1 x bag of malted grain.

1 x 10g packet of dry yeast, labelled Ale Yeast.

Ok now for the instructions... He also hand wrote a modification to the instuctions so I will include them at the top.

Hand written:
===================
GRAIN:
Into 1Litre water
Heat to 66deg
Hold @ 66deg for 10 mins
-----------------------------
Use 2 more Lt water @ 66 deg
to strain into boil pot or fermenter.


Oh and it seems I need to go out today and purchase a thermometer that will read 66 degress for me. Mine only reads up to 40.
===================

On Box: (Skipping obvious stuff like stand can in hot water to soften malt)
===================
Grain - Empty the grain into heat proof vessel of at least 1 litre capactity,. Fill with boiling water and stand for 10 - 20 minutes.
(I think his written instruction replace this step)

Mixing.
Dissolve the contents of the can and the 500g bewing sugar in 2 litres of hot water.

Strain liquid from the grain directly into the fermenter..and rinse grain through with an addition 1 litre of cold water.

Fill to 22 litres of hot or cold water to get to 25degrees.

Fermentaion (skipping)
...
Ferment Temps:
Ale Yeast: 16-25 degrees (it then suggests to try and stay at the lower end of the temp range)

It also mentions the FG should be 1.000 - 1.0002

 

[rendo]

Cool,

Sounds not so bad, there are things here and there I could comment on, but thats good advice, nothing there that will give crap results. So thats good.

Do you know what sort of grain it is? Does it have a name on the packet? or just malted grain. I am assuming this grain is what is known as "specialty grain" that only requires "steeping" in hot water, temperature isnt HEAPS important, where as base malt (i think its called) requires what is called "mashing" which is basically steeping at a specific temperature over a long period of time (to the AG guys...I am simplfying it...so dont get all pedantic on me!) and in mashing temp is very important.

Anyway, when u want to do some research I recommend looking up specialty grain on this site.

Dont stress too much if you cant keep it at 66deg, as bum said in another thread u will have to watch it like a hawk. Anyway, as you brew you learn so much by doing it yourself. Read up on spec grain. (assuming that is the type of grain you have.....)

Go for it...follow his instructions. CHEERS

rendo

ok so.. in the box.

1 x tin of liquid malt (which I was told already has dry enzyme mixed in... not so sure about this.. and I didin't get the kit because its low carb, but because
my wife likes the taste of pure blonde and so, he suggested this for that reason alone).

1 x bag of a mixture of sugars/dry malt (The bottom half has is a very fine white powder and the top half is a slightly courser brown powder).
(I asked him what was in them, and he said they don't give the ingredients of the kits because its IP. (Maybe he doesn't know)).
1 x bag of malted grain.

1 x 10g packet of dry yeast, labelled Ale Yeast.

Ok now for the instructions... He also hand wrote a modification to the instuctions so I will include them at the top.

Hand written:
===================
GRAIN:
Into 1Litre water
Heat to 66deg
Hold @ 66deg for 10 mins
-----------------------------
Use 2 more Lt water @ 66 deg
to strain into boil pot or fermenter.


Oh and it seems I need to go out today and purchase a thermometer that will read 66 degress for me. Mine only reads up to 40.
===================

On Box: (Skipping obvious stuff like stand can in hot water to soften malt)
===================
Grain - Empty the grain into heat proof vessel of at least 1 litre capactity,. Fill with boiling water and stand for 10 - 20 minutes.
(I think his written instruction replace this step)

Mixing.
Dissolve the contents of the can and the 500g bewing sugar in 2 litres of hot water.

Strain liquid from the grain directly into the fermenter..and rinse grain through with an addition 1 litre of cold water.

Fill to 22 litres of hot or cold water to get to 25degrees.

Fermentaion (skipping)
...
Ferment Temps:
Ale Yeast: 16-25 degrees (it then suggests to try and stay at the lower end of the temp range)

It also mentions the FG should be 1.000 - 1.0002

 

[uncleBez]

PROVERB TIME!!!!!!


A wise man once said. Ask ten homebrewers how to brew a beer and you will get eleven different methods.

Its not wrong to bottle once fermentaion stops but generally around these parts people find you get a clearer and more rounded/ mellowed beer from letting it age for a week or two before bottling. However it is wrong that the beer will get oxygenated unless you are doing an open air fermentation. Because your fermenter is all partially sealed no air should be able to get into the beer from the outside air and the co2 will form a layer of gas over your beer and protect it from oxygenating. As far as I am aware the only thing that will hurt your beer after fermentation is complete is autolosis (spelt incorrectly here) which is the death of the yeast, however this takes considerably longer then a week it has been argued that it will take up to three months to kick in. but I would bottle within a month to be sure.

I love proverbs!

Thanks for that post, it cleared (pardon the pun) the issue up for me. As I keep saying whats done is done. He just gave me a good excuse to give in and
bottle early, I am energetic and eager to try new things. I was geared up to wait the extra week until he flat out said. 'Bottle It.'.

 

[uncleBez]

I think I paid more than necessary for my new kit. (Had my wife and 18mth old child with me, and I was feeling rushed, uncertain of exactly what I wanted,
and wanting a drink my wife would enjoy also, so I dived in. Its done now..)

I like variety.

I think I said earlier, except for dark ales and stouts, I like all beers I have tried...

I have seen on this forum alot of 'debate' about low carb beers (there is a particular thread in the retail forum that delves into it.

At the very least I would have experienced this for myself, and can report back what happens.

As this kit includes a bag of grain. Does this make it a partial?

 

[manticle]

It's a partial if the grain is base grain and you have to mash it. Partial is short for partial mash and means some of your fermentable sugars come from mashing. Spec grains provide very little fermentable sugar as the kilning process has usually destroyed it. Crystal malts will give some (not much) but are still considered spec malts.

Basically malted grain contains enzymes and starches (and other things). Some of those enzymes are capable of converting the starches to sugars but need to be activated first. Cracking the husk and certain temperature ranges allow this process to happen. Thus in mashing, temperature range is important (actual temp within that range defines things like dryness and body and so on in the finished product).

In specialty grains, the grains have been kilned more than base malts so their starches have already been converted but more often than not have dissipated due to the process. They therefore can just be soaked in water (hot water works quickest but overnight cold works too) to get colour and flavour. Too hot can risk tannic extraction.

 

[Siborg]

kits n bits. You have a can of liquid malt, and sugar/dry malt and specialty grains which, as manticle described, don't lend much of the fermentable sugar to the brew.

A partial isn't too different to what you are doing now, except instead of using specialty grains and steeping them for 10mins at 66deg, you'd use base malts and mash them at 66deg for a little longer (normally around 60 mins). You'd also probably use less malt extract (liquid or dry) and little to no sugar, as most of the fermentable sugar would come from mashing the base malt.

Its a good thing he modified the instructions for two reasons:

1. As rendo said, I had a bad brew as a result of steeping grains in boiling water
2. Its good practice for moving to the next step, partial mashing.

Really, there is a fine line between doing partials and full AG. The only difference is that you'll use less base malt in a partial and top up, so to speak, with liquid or dry extract.

Brew on! :beer: