Clarify My Understanding Of Specifics.

[uncleBez]

Hi. (Ok I posted this elsewhere a number of days ago, without response, I will try again here)

I made a few homebrews from coopers kits a couple years back and they all turned out nice enough. (Just following basic instructions
from the coopers kit).

Ok so I have just started another brew which is currently fermenting and feeling new again have been reading ALOT of information
over the passed few days, on the internet and books from the library (I just might burn myself out ).

So I have a few questions about my brew.

Here is my current situation.

On the 07/04/2010 here is what i did.

I activated the dry yeast from the kit in warm water.
it frothed up very nicely in the steralised jar with glad wrap over it.
I believe this is a combination yeast of lager and ale and that is why they recommend a fermentation of 21 - 27deg?
If i used a saflager of safale yeast I would brew at a lower temp and probably get a better result?

I dissolved in hot water the kit malt and a tin of Tooheys brewing sugar (which says ingredients: maize starch on the tin). The tin says to use in place of sugar and dextrose.
I don't think this was the best choice, but I am interested to see how it turns out, maybe
i should use on of coopers brew enhancers?

The temp was then at 25.6deg C, I added the yeast (I forgot to take the SG reading, but did it instantly after adding yeast) and I got a reading of
1.041

The mix cooled quickly in the garage to about 22deg C and is fermenting away nicely now.
The garage seems to remain at a constant 22 degrees. Its always the coolest part of the house.

Ok so.. bottleing...

I have been reading about finings (gelatine), racking, lagering etc...
So i don't want to get to complicated but want to improve my results.

I am planning to..

after fermenting as finished (hydro reading stable for 3 days) rack the beer (syphon into a vessel and back into the cleaned fermenter

I only have one fermenter but would like to rack as I have read this is a big contibuter to better quality.
Is it too risky to transfer to say a steralised esky and back to the fermenter?
And what benefit has racking on my brew?

I then plan to add the prepared gelatine and leave for a couple days (in current location), and then bottle to primed bottles.
Are the finings going to effect my carbonation, and if so how much?, in what way?

I will leave the bottles in the same location for 3 weeks and then cool before drinking.


Also any home brew clubs around the north ryde area of sydney?

Love to hear if I have planned well, or if I am going off track.

 

[zabond]

basically your ok with your thoughts,personally 1:I'd not use kit yeast 2:ferm @ 20* max[18* best for ales]3:buy a bunnings 20ltr water container about $20 to rack into,if your racking into an esky then back into fermentor your increasing your chances of infection/oxidation,by racking into 2nd ferm then adding gelatine if you can get temps down to 1*-4* the clearer your beer,also you can then bulk prime in 2nd ferm[water container]before bottling

 

[manticle]

Hi. (Ok I posted this elsewhere a number of days ago, without response, I will try again here)

I made a few homebrews from coopers kits a couple years back and they all turned out nice enough. (Just following basic instructions
from the coopers kit).

Ok so I have just started another brew which is currently fermenting and feeling new again have been reading ALOT of information
over the passed few days, on the internet and books from the library (I just might burn myself out ).

So I have a few questions about my brew.

Here is my current situation.

On the 07/04/2010 here is what i did.

I activated the dry yeast from the kit in warm water.
it frothed up very nicely in the steralised jar with glad wrap over it.
I believe this is a combination yeast of lager and ale and that is why they recommend a fermentation of 21 - 27deg?
If i used a saflager of safale yeast I would brew at a lower temp and probably get a better result?

You will get a good result with saflager or safale provided you can keep the brew in the recommended temp zones. Something like US05 will give a nice clean result but if you go much above 22 it will start to get fruity and estery. Coopers yeasts are a touch more tolerant but it's still better to maintain even temp around the 20 mark. Where you have it will be fine but I'd try and make sure it goes no higher.

Saflager would need to be held closer to 10-12. One advantage of those yeasts is that you get more in the pack (nearly twice) which prevents weird flavours and stressed yeast due to underpitching. Also make sure they are housed in the fridge wherever you're buying them and are within date.

I dissolved in hot water the kit malt and a tin of Tooheys brewing sugar (which says ingredients: maize starch on the tin). The tin says to use in place of sugar and dextrose.
I don't think this was the best choice, but I am interested to see how it turns out, maybe
i should use on of coopers brew enhancers?

You can use a mixture of things till you find the balance of body and dryness you're happy with. I'm guessing maize starch is maltodextrin which will add body and head retention but little flavour or alcohol. It can be a good thing to improve a basic kit but once you start tring to make better beer, the addition of malt extract, some grains and hops can do this while really booosting a beer. Coopers brew enhancers will be a similar mix (I think one of them is dextrose, maltodextrin and dried malt).

Personally I would start replacing some of your basic sugar with malt extract - about 25% more by weight to hit the same gravity. However some dextrose will help the brew along - all malt extract can sometimes finish high and be a bit cloying. You'll have to fiddle to see where you like it.

Ok so.. bottleing...

I have been reading about finings (gelatine), racking, lagering etc...
So i don't want to get to complicated but want to improve my results.



I am planning to..

after fermenting as finished (hydro reading stable for 3 days) rack the beer (syphon into a vessel and back into the cleaned fermenter

I only have one fermenter but would like to rack as I have read this is a big contibuter to better quality.
Is it too risky to transfer to say a steralised esky and back to the fermenter?
And what benefit has racking on my brew?

What are you aiming to achieve? Is it just less sediment in the bottles? Brighter beer?


While I do rack many/most of my beers, it pays to have a reason why. Don't do it just because you read about it - a great number of brewers don't rack ales and report no difference in results. If you use gelatin finings and the benefit of cold environment (in a fridge) you can drop out most of the sediment and leave it behind. This does have a flavour impact on the beer.

If you do decide you want to try racking, you'll need to work out if it's mainly for clarity or if it's for the purpose of secondary fermentation or for bulk priming or for ageing/flavouring. I would then set yourself up properly with a second fermenter. I like racking but it's not without its drawbacks and some don't think it's worth it (possibly a lot of them use kegs, I'm not sure).

I then plan to add the prepared gelatine and leave for a couple days (in current location), and then bottle to primed bottles.
Are the finings going to effect my carbonation, and if so how much?, in what way?

Carbonation will happen because the remaining yeast in suspension eats the primary sugar and starts a small fermentation again, producing carbon dioxide. While your finings will have helped drop out (flocculate) some of the yeast, don't worry about there being enough to carbonate. If you bottle into longnecks or 750mL PET, I would say they'll be carbonated within the fortnight - maybe even earlier. If you bottle into stubbies or even 500mL they may take longer. PET will be hard when you squeeze them if they are carbed so even bottling into one PET tester can be good. Nothing worse than opening the beer you've been looking forward to and it's just got a hint of fizz.

Sounds like you're on the right track and it's good that you're reading and learning. Keep it simple to start - making beer isn't hard and the best teacher is experience (including stuffing it up more than once) so read, brew, learn, tweak etc.

If you haven't already, look up John Palmer's how to brew. Worth owning but the early edition is free, online and in its entirety.

 

[rendo]

Hi Bez,

First thought that came to mind when reading your email is......given the detail and effort you went to in your post and readings, you are bound to make good beer. It might just take a few brews until you reach the sweet spot, but you are on the road my friend!

Only a short reply from me for now...but here are my off the top of the head responses...


1. What coopers kit did you use? It is UNLIKELY it is ale and lager yeasts. Real lager yeasts like temps around 10-12C (max 15C). Thats not to say you cant make lager type beer with ale yeasts, you easily can. When I say lager type beer, I mean like the commericial type beers eg VB, TED, New etc.....(after a while these beers wont taste as good as your brew and you will begrudingly drink them).
Trying using a pretty neutral tasting, dry-ish type yeast. It will make a difference over the kit yeast. Try US-05 or Mauri 514, I am fast becoming a fanod Mauri 514, its cheap, ferments well, doesnt throw alot of funny flavours at high temps and works a treat down to 15deg. GO the 514 (That being said I am currently using a White Labs Liquid German Lager yeast.....$15 a pop....but the signs so far is that this will be a nice lager (fermenting at 10.8deg in my ferm fridge!...in time you might get one too)

2. Temperature makes a massive difference, always go colder than warmer.. but 18-22C is a good guide. Try to keep temps consistent. Your garage sounds PERFECT!.

3. My personal opinion is dont rack it. (real lagers brewing/lagering for 2months+ are a different story) There is a time and place for racking, but there is alot to be said about taking the beer off the yeast too early and/or leaving the beer on the yeast that extra 5-7 days so the yeasties can cleanup the off flavours and mellow things out a bit. As a general guide i recommend two weeks in the primary fermenter. By this time your yeast (should) have fully fermented brew, cleaned up any off flavours they made, settled down nicely on the bottom, leaving you with yummy beer. DONT risk your beer getting infected or oxidised flavours (yuk) because of unneccesary transferring. (all just IMO). Trust me on this and try racking sometime in future brews. Unless you really really really really have to try it now. PS...I do rack SOMETIMES...just depends on the 'why'. For you, for now, my view is skip it. But DO try it down the track.

4. You could add finings for another 2-4 days then bottle, you will have nice beer (all other factors being well). Gelatine finings is easy: Boil water, pour into a mug, let it cool to 50-75 deg (takes 5-10mins), add gelatine, stir and dissolve all crystals. Let it sit another 5-10mins, stir well again. Open fermenter, pour slowly over and across the top of the brew, done. Wait a few days). Wont affect carbonation at all.

5. Leave your beer in the bottles for at least a few good weeks, I find after 6-8 weeks is a good starting point. Always exceptions, but this is generally speaking.

6. You are doing well!!! Happy brewing.

I am near you, Lane Cove. Not a member of any brewing clubs yet. Would be killed by wife. I got permission to get a fermentation fridge, so that keeps me happy enough. I also have an 11 week old baby daughter and a 20month old son. So not much time for a brew club (at the moment), I will one day. I think there is a northern beaches club? there is an Inner Sydney Brewers club.....not really sure about the club scene.

Keep us up to date with your brewing!

(and...ask a forum of brewers a question and your get 10-100 different answers, but that is half the fun isnt it, reading thru all the conflicting info and making up your own mind, never really knowing if you have made the right choice until you do it, it works and you go....shit yeah!)

Rendo

EDIT: Take the advice from Manticle, he has helped me alot in my quest for yummy beer!
Try the coopers brew enc#2 kit, its not bad, ages ago I experimented and replaced the 'kilo of sugar/dex' with a kilo of Light Dry Malt. The beer turned out wonderfully.

If you are capable of making a cup of tea then this means you can use/add extra hops into your brews. Take a look at the hops at your LHBS, read up on what flavour/type of hops you might like, then get yourself some hops and experiment away, then you are on a slippery slope to a very addictive hobby with majorly great benefits (that is...beer)

Hi. (Ok I posted this elsewhere a number of days ago, without response, I will try again here)

I made a few homebrews from coopers kits a couple years back and they all turned out nice enough. (Just following basic instructions
from the coopers kit).



Love to hear if I have planned well, or if I am going off track.

 

[paulwolf350]

Hi. (Ok I posted this elsewhere a number of days ago, without response, I will try again here)


after fermenting as finished (hydro reading stable for 3 days) rack the beer (syphon into a vessel and back into the cleaned fermenter

I only have one fermenter but would like to rack as I have read this is a big contibuter to better quality.
Is it too risky to transfer to say a steralised esky and back to the fermenter?
And what benefit has racking on my brew?

Mate, racking is a possible infection source, I would not recommed racking your beer. If you have a fridge, whack you fermenter in there for a couple of days at 1deg, its called "cold crashing". It will make all the yeast drop out and serve much the same process as racking, in half the time and without infection, then just bottle as normal

 

[Bribie G]

My God how much caffeine have you guys had this morning

Yes agree with most points above. 22 degrees is great but as pointed out it can produce a bit of 'fruityness' with some yeasts. Coming into winter however is it likely that your garage will drop below 20? If so then US-05 would be great for lager-style kit brews. Once you get below 20 a good genuine lager yeast S-189 can be fermented at ale temperatures to produce good lagers.

If you get a 20L willow jerry can from Bunnings you will find that it actually holds about 23 litres so will take your full brew with little or no headspace, which is what you want. I treat nearly all my beers as follows:

• Ferment in the "normal" barrel shaped HB fermenter until fermentation complete, anywhere between 5 and 10 days for an ale depending on what selected temperature, or up to 2 weeks for a lager.
• Pour gelatine solution into jerry can and rack the beer in on top to fill the jerry. This leaves most of the yeast trub in the fermenter.
• Crash chill the jerry down to 2 degrees and forget about it for 10 days.
• Add Polyclar 3 days before bottling or kegging (not necessary with kit beers, they don't seem to suffer from chill haze unless you are adding extra malts)
• Bottle or keg.

The Willow jerries come with a blank tap hole but you can carefully carve that out and fit a $2 tap from Bunnings, for bottling and kegging purposes.

:icon_cheers:

 

[glaab]

Mate, racking is a possible infection source, I would not recommed racking your beer. If you have a fridge, whack you fermenter in there for a couple of days at 1deg, its called "cold crashing". It will make all the yeast drop out and serve much the same process as racking, in half the time and without infection, then just bottle as normal

that's exactly what I do, after about 14 days in the primary @ 20C for ales. I won;t even rack to a secondary, seems like a big risk and extra work for nothing.

 

[uncleBez]

Thanks everyone, wonderfull replies, I am glad I posted.

Sounds to me like I just plain shouldn't really, worry. Just keep my notes and pretty much
just do whatever and it should turn out ok.

My airlock has significantly slowed over the last 2 days, very slow today, bubbling about once
every 30 seconds. and I have taken a hydrometer reading of 1.011.

As I am rather broke until next wednesday, I think that if I decide to bottle before then, I will
just bottle straight as is.

Otherwise I will forget the racking, add the gelatine as described and leave a couple days and
then bottle.

I don't have a fermenting fridge as yet, and I don't think I will for a while.

But I think I am going to have fun experimenting.

I just need to figure out how to describe the taste in my notes. I haven't really enough experience
to decern the different flavours, I am sure it will come.

Again thanks heaps!

 

[Bribie G]

that's exactly what I do, after about 14 days in the primary @ 20C for ales. I won;t even rack to a secondary, seems like a big risk and extra work for nothing.

I'll try that with my next ale, shucks I'll try anything once :lol:

 

[rendo]

I was drinking a super strong coffee at the time. The more I drank, the more I typed....and I set out only to write a few lines at most. Soon I will be in the same league as pistolpatch.....I am working on it.

My God how much caffeine have you guys had this morning

 

[rendo]

Bez,

The brew went down on the 7th hey....well its now the weekend...give it until next weekend EARLIEST to bottle Maybe add gelatine (VERY CHEAP) on wednesday/thurs latest then bottle sat/sun?

It will be worth the wait.

Anyway, you'll be right, at worst you'll have reasonable beer to drink. Sounds alright to me. soon you'll have great beer to drink.

PS....airlocks are so 2000, haha. I dont use them anymore, many here dont. U can find heaps to read about it here. I put gladwrap over the fermenter and use the rubber o-ring from the lid to hold the glad wrap in place. It gives you a wonderful window into your world of brewing (you can see so much of what is or isnt going on this way. easy cleaning too...although I do miss the blooop blooop blooooop...mentally scarred....blooop..bloop..)

Rendo

Thanks everyone, wonderfull replies, I am glad I posted.

Sounds to me like I just plain shouldn't really, worry. Just keep my notes and pretty much
just do whatever and it should turn out ok.

My airlock has significantly slowed over the last 2 days, very slow today, bubbling about once
every 30 seconds. and I have taken a hydrometer reading of 1.011.

As I am rather broke until next wednesday, I think that if I decide to bottle before then, I will
just bottle straight as is.

Otherwise I will forget the racking, add the gelatine as described and leave a couple days and
then bottle.

I don't have a fermenting fridge as yet, and I don't think I will for a while.

But I think I am going to have fun experimenting.

I just need to figure out how to describe the taste in my notes. I haven't really enough experience
to decern the different flavours, I am sure it will come.

Again thanks heaps!

 

[uncleBez]

Wow you guys a super helpfull. I am in IT and IT forums are never this helpfull. Everyone just trying to prove how smart they are!

Anyway. I have read in a few different places that you can tell fermentation has stopped when you
get a stable reading on the hydrometer for 2-3 consecutive days.

You guys are advising me to wait 2 weeks instead. So I should wait 2 weeks regardless of my
hydrometer readings?
(I presume at 2 weeks I should still be looking for a stable hydro' reading, ie. if the Specific gravity is
still falling at 2 weeks I should wait till it stabalises/).

 

[manticle]

Hydrometer readings are first and foremost. Gravity is more important than time. However, once your brew is finished and stable, it can still benefit from some time on the yeast cake. (a few days is good). Recent experience has told me that this holds less true in hot weather but now that autumn has set in you should be ok to hold off bottling for an extra 3-4 days and you should get a cleaner tasting product at the end..

 

[rendo]

Yes....what he (manticle) said!!

I am in IT too........so many geeks guys at work brew too.....is it a IT thing?

Hydrometer readings are first and foremost. Gravity is more important than time. However, once your brew is finished and stable, it can still benefit from some time on the yeast cake. (a few days is good). Recent experience has told me that this holds less true in hot weather but now that autumn has set in you should be ok to hold off bottling for an extra 3-4 days and you should get a cleaner tasting product at the end..

 

[uncleBez]

Thank for that. This forums awesone. And Manticle, you very quick with great answers thanks for all your help so far.

I definately feel that with the quality of the support on this forum I am going to be brewing some very nice beer.
I think I may have done things slightly differently with this one in hindsight (I'm really not sure about that tooheys liquid
brewing sugar). Hey it might end up amazing!

Rendo you've been very helpfull also.


I'm think I might have to get right into this over the colder months as it seems Ill be in need of a fridge or the 100 can cooler trick I saw.


I have a heat belt from the 3 or so batches I did a couple years ago. I was using to keep the temp in the 21-27* range that coopers kits were saying.

This is fun. I am even enjoying the wait this time because I am doing so much research and learning heaps.

Thanks guys.

 

[jiesu]

bez their is a few of us around the ryde area. Im in "south" ryde near Rhodes. Barls is over denistone way and syd-03 is in Marsfield I think. No brew club or home brew shops in this area unfortunately. I think we fall into the ISB jurisdiction but I doubt it would matter which you attend. Maybe we should get together and have a brew day sometime. From what you wrote in your first post it sounds like you have some pretty good processes down pat.
I will also vouch for the leaving the beer in the primary for a week or two/three after fermentation is completed It was my first variation in my brewing technique and it created a much better and clearer beer then bottling straight after primary.

 

[rendo]

heat belt.....hmmm, not a fan (no pun intended). If its cold enough to use a brew belt, then its cold enough to brew lagers, so brew lagers,

put your brew belt away at the back of the drawer, just in case, i dont think you will need it again.

Enjoy the ride mate, thats what its all about...and drinking beer too

(PS....this forum can have its catty times too, just like any other forum, but its pretty cool here. I have learnt so much and I make better beers because of this site (more so the people on it). It doesnt take too long for the guys to come back to drinking beer as a common ground )

I have a heat belt from the 3 or so batches I did a couple years ago. I was using to keep the temp in the 21-27* range that coopers kits were saying.

This is fun. I am even enjoying the wait this time because I am doing so much research and learning heaps.

Thanks guys.

 

[manticle]

I'm almost in agreement with Rendo. If you don't have a fermentation fridge, you can use a heat belt when the weather is really cold but you really need to watch them, put it on, above the beer line for a couple of hours, turn it off, monitor temp then cover with a blanket*. Do this only when absolutely necessary (eg ale has fallen to 14 deg at 1020 and is stalled) On their own they will make a brew far too warm.

Fermentation produces heat and the thermal mass of beer will insulate itself quite well. Keep the heat belt but use it vey wisely and sparingly (or brew lagers).

* obviously don't cover working heat belt with a blanket. turn off, remove etc, etc.

 

[Siborg]

Hi UncleBez

Some great advice has already been offered, so I'll just tell you what I do for slight comparison. I actually have taken alot of advice from manticle, so it may be quite similar.

I've recently started cold conditioning in the primary fermentation vessel. After a few days at 0-4 degrees, I've added gelatine to help drop the yeast and left it a couple of days longer. I didn't bother with my last brew, as the beer was pretty clear after about a week in the fridge.

I only rack to bulk prime onto the sugar, but that's something you can try later. If you are looking for a half decent container that can double as a fermenter, have a look at the water storage/camping departments at bunnings or rays outdoors.

You can use that heat belt in the colder months ahead to keep your ales at around 18-20 degrees, or leave it off and do some lagers. Keep an eye on it though, as you get over 22, you'll get more esters/fruity flavours. Or better yet, get a temperature controller, if you can afford one. I don't have one yet, but I have seen them in use and they are great. I'll definitely be getting one for my next purchase.

 

[Siborg]

I'm almost in agreement with Rendo. If you don't have a fermentation fridge, you can use a heat belt when the weather is really cold but you really need to watch them, put it on, above the beer line for a couple of hours, turn it off, monitor temp then cover with a blanket. Do this only when absolutely necessary (eg ale has fallen to 1040 and is stalled) On their own they will make a brew far too warm.

Fermentation produces heat and the thermal mass of beer will insulate itself quite well. Keep the heat belt but use it vey wisely and sparingly (or brew lagers).

+1 forgot to mention that. I try and keep my fridge at around 14-15 degrees for a 19-20 degree ferment.