Cider Using Whole Apples - Not Juice

[chefeffect]

Just wondering Greg.L and KudaPucat how you get your apples (not where thats fine) do you grow your own? also are they cider apples or dessert apples with some crab apple for the tannins?

I have just bought 10 cider apple trees with 8 varieties from the four main classes on MM106 root stock, I know it will take 2-3 years for the first apple and probably a small amount at that, but I think its a good investment for my own use. Im also wondering if growing more would be a good idea for selling the apples or juice to brewers?? I have done some research and I can't seem to find anyone who does this, Im sure it would be easy to off load good quality cider apples if I can grow them. Yes I do dream a bit too much also.

Anyways just curious what you guys do?

Edit: Greg.L I should have looked at your profile before I posted, I guess my question is what Apple trees do you grow? I also live on a hobby farm just South of Echuca.

 

[Greg.L]

I have my own trees, 1 proper cider tree (sweet alford) and the 6 heritage type dessert/cookers. I also planted a bunch of crab apple seedlings years ago from a "John Downie" crab, and some of these have proven excellent for giving tannins and body to my cider. It's definitely a good idea to plant some cider varieties, before you know it you will have a good crop to play around with - and its a lot easier than planting and maintaining a vineyard. I have started grafting cider and perry varieties to seedling rootstock I raised, it's pretty easy.

Selling juice is definitely easier than selling cider, though the price isn't as good. I don't know how much demand there is for cider juice but at least you don't have to bottle it and store it.

 

[chefeffect]

Very true about the juice sale rather than hard cider, I am looking forward to trying some grafting off these trees in a few years. I see you said you made 800L juice, and from your own stock thats awesome. How goes the pear trees? I have thought about that also, although its a long term investment?? I guess it depends on the root stock. "Pears for your Heirs" as they say.

The cider varieties I have bought are: Kingston black, Improved Foxwhelp, Bulmers Norman, and Somerset Red Streak.

And some dessert/cider: Blanch, and Calcille Blanc D'Hiver which Im hoping to blend with the others??

Anyways all in the name of fun I guess, I found some great info on you tube from "stephenhayesuk" he has loads of posts on growing apples trees which has helped me.

 

[Greg.L]

They are good, well proven cider varieties, also good to have some non-bitter varieties for blending. Stephan hayes is very knowledgeable about apples, he contributes to the cider workshop forum on google groups, you may have seen it.

My seedling pears are doing well, the perry grafts will be slow to produce. There are so few perry trees in Australia, they may eventually be a good investment. From what I have read it is easier to make a good cider than a good perry. I use dessert pears for blending but this year the pears didn't ripen well so I didn't use them.

Greg

 

[KudaPucat]

Well sounds like you're doing a pretty good job pressing. Some people take the whole cheese apart then repack the pulp before re-pressing. Others add a bit of water for the second pressing, the way brewers add water to sparge the grain, but I don't like the idea of diluting the juice. Also I'm too lazy to do a second pressing, I have more apples than I need so 60% is fine for me.

In a weekend, we like to produce 1000 litres, more if there's more help... so efficiency is prime, as that is one hell of a lot of apples to pick.
We simply let the pressure off, wait 10-15 or until we remember and re-apply the pressure. Those other techniques sound too much like hard work, and diluting the juice???? it's light enough already at 1050-1080 I certainly wouldn't want to 'sparge' it. Perhaps if I was adding water anyhow....

Speed is also important to me, I get about 30L/hr by myself but would like to get that up to 50L/hr with a bigger press when my harvest gets bigger.

This is why, amongst the ppl who share the machinery, we will have 3 presses in use next year ;-)

By screw press I mean a press with an auger pushing against a screen, wineries have continuous screw presses which can be emptied while still being filled. Belt presses are considered a bit harsh for good cider.

Really? Wow, when I heard of belt presses, I thought - wow, that's beautiful, it's disappointing to hear they're not as good as screw presses.
Yeah a screw press is like a meat mincer without the blades. But I don't get how the pulp is ejected in such a press? Especially if it's continuously loaded like you say.

 

[chefeffect]

I had heard of the cider work shop forum but had not looked at it until you mentioned it, cheers its great.

I too have heard perry is harder to make than cider, blending sounds like a good idea, probably easier to buy dessert pears too.

Yeah I think I will put some pears in next year, I found only one oneline shop that had 4 varieties of perry pears: GIN, GREEN HORSE, YELLOW HUFFCAP, and MOORCROFT, they only had Moorcroft available this year which I dont think I want due to the small window for picking. I might order some later on for next year they where $32 each.

 

[KudaPucat]

My apples come from my main brewing mate, who collects them from dozens of trees on public land around his home town. He even makes the trip up to Bendigo where he has family, and picks when those trees are in season
The most we've been able to process has been almost 2 tonne. Despite him having 3 tonne there some years, we simply ran out of time.
Crab apple juice is essential to a good cidre imho. So is aging it.
My dad like yourself planted a dozen cidre trees (no perry damn him) and they will have their first harvest next year - hence my want to have decent equipment.
The other two guys, I don't really know that well, but I think as they have land they probably grow their own.

As for selling the stuff - value add it - make it into cidre, get a boutique liquor licence and sell it at the farmers' markets. Thos guys do very well..

 

[Greg.L]

I had heard of the cider work shop forum but had not looked at it until you mentioned it, cheers its great.

I too have heard perry is harder to make than cider, blending sounds like a good idea, probably easier to buy dessert pears too.

Yeah I think I will put some pears in next year, I found only one oneline shop that had 4 varieties of perry pears: GIN, GREEN HORSE, YELLOW HUFFCAP, and MOORCROFT, they only had Moorcroft available this year which I dont think I want due to the small window for picking. I might order some later on for next year they where $32 each.

As far as I know they are the only 4 perry varieties in Australia. I grafted all 4 but moorcroft didn't take so I only have 3. I am growing seedlings of Pyrus pashia, the himalayan pear, as an experiment. The fruit are described as moderately astringent so I'm hoping they will make a decent perry. The trees are 2yo and growing well, already 2m tall.

I get perry and cider scion wood for grafting from the Orange Ag Institute, Lester Snare is the man to talk to there. They have a good collection of varieties and will post scion wood in winter. I have about 20 cider trees to plant this winter.

Greg

 

[chefeffect]

My apples come from my main brewing mate, who collects them from dozens of trees on public land around his home town. He even makes the trip up to Bendigo where he has family, and picks when those trees are in season
The most we've been able to process has been almost 2 tonne. Despite him having 3 tonne there some years, we simply ran out of time.
Crab apple juice is essential to a good cidre imho. So is aging it.
My dad like yourself planted a dozen cidre trees (no perry damn him) and they will have their first harvest next year - hence my want to have decent equipment.
The other two guys, I don't really know that well, but I think as they have land they probably grow their own.

As for selling the stuff - value add it - make it into cidre, get a boutique liquor licence and sell it at the farmers' markets. Thos guys do very well..

To tell you the truth, I have been looking a little into licencing also. I will have to look a bit more at the boutique liquor licence as I have not heard of it before. I know a guy who sell's "RED NED" which is a red wine spritzer at our local markets. Maybe cider is a great idea...?

I guess a lot of people get their apples in the same way you do KudaPucat being loads of country areas have apple trees in back yards and so on. There are plenty of Orchards up this way so I may have to buy a few box's and do some practice on them.

 

[chefeffect]

I get perry and cider scion wood for grafting from the Orange Ag Institute, Lester Snare is the man to talk to there. They have a good collection of varieties and will post scion wood in winter. I have about 20 cider trees to plant this winter.

Greg

I might have to have look into this, sounds like a good idea. Cheers.

 

[KudaPucat]

As I understand it, and please - I've not researched this heavily.

If one gets permission and licence to brew alcohol for wholesale, one no longer needs a licence to sell in a public place such as a farmers market, or from their own cellar door, and other select places.
Somebody will need to research this properly.

I do know that the licence requires a dedicated brewry that has to pass health codes and all alcohol must be produced in this room. Inspections need to be made before a licence is issued, and there is a cost, as well as an annual fee I believe, but they're not insurmountable.

 

[Greg.L]

As I understand it, and please - I've not researched this heavily.

If one gets permission and licence to brew alcohol for wholesale, one no longer needs a licence to sell in a public place such as a farmers market, or from their own cellar door, and other select places.
Somebody will need to research this properly.

I do know that the licence requires a dedicated brewry that has to pass health codes and all alcohol must be produced in this room. Inspections need to be made before a licence is issued, and there is a cost, as well as an annual fee I believe, but they're not insurmountable.

In NSW there is no annual fee, just a once off $500 licence fee, plus a DA for the council, then you can sell farmgate or farmers market.

To me sitting around selling bottles of cider sounds pretty boring.

 

[chefeffect]

To me sitting around selling bottles of cider sounds pretty boring.

Ha ha ha yeah I have been to few farmers markets when I first started my catering business, I was selling spit roast rolls and other food products, and it's not the best way to make money let me tell you, and boring. Worse thing is you have to be at them on a rugular basis so people get to know your product, I only did 3 of them.

 

[KudaPucat]

Ha ha ha yeah I have been to few farmers markets when I first started my catering business, I was selling spit roast rolls and other food products, and it's not the best way to make money let me tell you, and boring. Worse thing is you have to be at them on a rugular basis so people get to know your product, I only did 3 of them.

Dedication is required yes, but at the Bundoora Market, ppl seem to make a killing, and it's only 4 hours on a sunday. The damn thing is packed, with ppl begging for stalls.
It's not something I'd probably do. at least not yet, but we'll see... Depends a lot of production capacity.
Dad is growing grapes, cidre trees and keeps bees.
If I were to fully harness his produce, he'd have WAY too much to drink on his own.
The only problem is you can't get the licence retrospectively I don't think. ie you can't get the licence and sell aged booze from before you were legit.

 

[chefeffect]

Hi, I'm just starting to research making some cider.. My Dad did it years ago and told me that they used to use whole apples (not juice) cut them into quarters and add to some liquid and leave it all to ferment, the rest of the description from him is VERY vague.. Has anyone heard of this method.. I have done quite a few google searches and everyone seems to juice the apples

thanks
David

I was talking to my sister in law who mentioned she makes soft cider from crab apples by cutting them into quarters, pouring boiling water over them, and then adding cream of tar tar, finished with sugar for taste. It is non alcoholic but I am wondering if this is what your father was talking about, I found a recipe here its half way down the page.

I am guessing you could ferment it and then strain out the apples, the cream of tar tar sucks out the juice from the crab apples. Anyways hope this helps after we hijacked this thread a few months ago lol

 

[joshuamurnane]

Just a note to all that are thinking of making a cider press, I found a 12 Ton Hydraulic Shop Press on ebay for $120, all you need then is to make the collection bed and find cheese cloths for the layers.

 

[Greg.L]

I think the best presses available in Australia are the idropress water pressure bag presses. Much easier and quicker than a rack and cloth press, and they give a reasonable yield. Winequip sell them for around $1500 (80L).

idropress

 

[joshuamurnane]

Thanks for that Greg.L, I'll take a look and start saving!