Cider Tips From A Pro Cider Maker

[Thirsty Boy]

I was at a course recently and one of the attendees was Mel the cidermaker from Creatures. I want to make some cider, so I cornered her and asked questions for a while. Here is the stuff I managed to remember and write down.

Now I have never made cider, and I was asking from the point of view of someone who would be able to filter, keg and artificially carbonate any cider I made - so I may have misinterpreted things or not asked many of the right questions. But here it is for what its worth.

What Apples / Juice should I use?

• She likes Pink ladies and Granny smith. Not necessarily what she uses at work, but readily available for the home cider maker. Pink ladies for nice delicate flavour and sugar content - Granny smith to give you acid. A tip to remember is that Granny smiths become less acidic over time after picking, so further from harvest time, you might need to increase the % of them you use.

How do I process them?

• Use a home juicer if you are talking home quantities - apples are really quite hard to press effectively even in a commercial set-up
• When you pick the apples and after you have cut them into chunks to put in the juicer - drop themn into a tub full of Sodium Metabisulphate solution. This will knock out the surface yeast on the apples, so you know you are only using the yeast you pitch (and hopefully no Brett) and it will also control the oxidation and thus browning of the apples and the juice. Some sodium met will carry over into the juice to provide continued protection till you pitch.
• Colour in cider is almost exclusively controlled by the amount of oxidation you let happen. So controlling it dictates a pale light green cider vs a browner type cider.

Fermentation??

• Use a nice white wine yeast. Dont use EC118 (champagne) it will be harsh and nasty. She suspects the Wyeast cider varieties might be a "safe" choice for home use.
• Ferment cool at 12-13
• If it rings your bells, stirring up the yeast lees every day of two will give you that nice yeasty/bready/autolyic taste you get in whites and sparkling sometimes (yum)

Malolactic Fermentation

• If your cider is too harsh in its acidity - try a malolactic fermentation which will change the acidity from tart and sharp due to malic acid to smoother and softer lactic acid.
• There's a good chance that the malolactic bugs will also pump out some diacetyl and that will contribute a buttery taste and add a fullness and smoothness to the mouthfeel

Add Tannins / Acid ??

• If you need to. Have some wine tannins on hand just in case. Same with acid

Backsweeten/Carbonation?

• Backsweeten with juice not sugar. This also gives you an opportunity to add a little acid by using a more acidic juice.
• Wasn't sure that trying to backsweeten AND carbonate at home was a good idea. Thought it might lead to dangerous bottle explosions.
• My plan to filter - stabilise with sorbate - add juice to backsweeten - force carb in the keg - Seemed to be a workable solution though

And thats about all I can remember. As I said, I haven't made any cider - so anything that is misinformation, wrong, or controversial - is almost certainly due to this stuff being filtered through my brain rather than coming directly from Mel's mouth. She was amazingly knowledgeable and was really nice to let me pick her brains on this topic.

I hope any guys who are about to launch into this find this stuff helpful. One of these days I will try cider making and find out for myself.

Cheers

Thirsty

_{edit: to tidy up formatting and spelling}

 

[bum]

Thanks for posting that.

I'm planning an all juice cider and there's a couple of things there I'll add to my recipe/process. One question though - the suggested brew temp is a bit lower than the Wyeast info for their cider yeast, did you get the impression the temp or the yeast was more important? What I mean is it better to use a yeast that'll handle the low temps than ferment at the suggested Wyeast temp?

 

[DJbrewer]

would the cooler temps lead to a crisper cider? hmmm.

maybe next time, when i do not have a deadline, i will let the cider ferment at the lowest that the Wyeast suggests is possible;
16 degC, for the Wyeast 4766, i think.

thanks for grabbing the info and posting!

 

[Thirsty Boy]

hmmm - sorry about the confusion. The lower temps are her suggestion for using white wine yeast. She was only taking a stab at the appropriateness of the WYeast varieties. I think the idea is to avoid hot alcohols/fusels and keep the cider smooth and easy to drink.

Her approach to cider making was very much from her winemaker background - her opinion was that cider making shared far less with brewing than with winemaking and she approached it as such.

I'm sure there are plenty of winemakers on this site who could elaborate on the reasons why you might want to ferment a white wine yeast at a lower temperature.

 

[manticle]

Stuff I've read about Breton ciders also suggests lower ferment temperatuires and longer ferment times.

I can't claim to know why but my guess is that it's vaguely similar to a lager. Cider throw off some funky smells and flavours when they ferment and are nicest when they are crisp, refreshing and clean so lower temeperatures for longer times presumably allows this.

Breton ciders use wild yeast so I'm assuming it's not just the yeast type as long as it actually works.

I'm still not convinced by the sodium met though. My very limited experience with letting sulphites anywhere near cider has always had less then desirable results. The one I'm maturing at the moment has been a lot less funky with no horrible sulphur odour and I used no potassium or sodium met.

Great post TB.

 

[jivesucka]

how do i get a cider that isn't dry? take it out sooner?

 

[Scruffy]

Ferment it out, checking the gravity - as a rule I stop sweetish cider at 1020 (you can always taste it...) - stop the ferment by dropping a couple of crushed campden tablets, leave it a couple of weeks, then bottle and mature.

I guess you're starting about 1060?

I'm going to leave the wording, as it's funny. But you know what I meant!

 

[manticle]

I use lactose to prevent my ciders being bone dry. Boil up 5005, cool and add to the must (or whatever the cider equivalent is called). I don't like campden (sulphite) as mentioned above. I find the next day effects of drinking anything with sulphites to be unpleasant.

 

[InCider]

I've used champagne yeast and wine yeast. Champers is my fave :blink:

The champers takes some getting used to but gets rolled out every few house kegs. It's called Belligerent Cider at my house. Why? Quite strong! I am trying to make more body with it but so far no success.

For the last champers yeast I used, It said to ferment hot (not sure exactly, but 17-23) and it went like a cracker. I have kept them lower before in lager temps and not found any case for or against high and low temps, and I've not been bothered by fusels at all. Maybe that's at much higher temps.


Great info TB, I'll be taking a leaf from Mels book with the apples types.

 

[bradsbrew]

I've used champagne yeast and wine yeast. Champers is my fave :blink:

The champers takes some getting used to but gets rolled out every few house kegs. It's called Belligerent Cider at my house. Why? Quite strong! I am trying to make more body with it but so far no success.

For the last champers yeast I used, It said to ferment hot (not sure exactly, but 17-23) and it went like a cracker. I have kept them lower before in lager temps and not found any case for or against high and low temps, and I've not been bothered by fusels at all. Maybe that's at much higher temps.


Great info TB, I'll be taking a leaf from Mels book with the apples types.

+1 for Inciders cider on the champers yeast. If I ever make a cider that is the benchmark flavour i will be trying for.

Cheers Brad

 

[InCider]

+1 for Inciders cider on the champers yeast. If I ever make a cider that is the benchmark flavour i will be trying for.

Cheers Brad

Thanks Brad - Jayandcath said if I ever brought any near him ever again he'd never speak to me again. He was designated driver for the 5 hour trip to hennos...

 

[manticle]

Hi Incider,

Can you give me any tips on how you make your ciders? Mine have been a mixture of store bought preservative free juice and a blend of apples juiced by me. I'm aiming for the next one to be entirely fresh apples juiced by me. I normally ferment with white wine yeast and add lactose, don't use sulphites and treat it like a lager (low long ferment, cold condition etc). They've turned out well but there's always room for improvement.

The main thing I'm after is apple flavour.

 

[jayandcath]

Brother, all's good now. I have calmed after that trip and again would like to partake of some cider action.
I would like to add a disclaimer for Inciders "Champers Cider", please be very careful, but its also very good for polishing Stainless. (Brings it up a treat)
Bulmers in definately my favourite though.
Jay

Thanks Brad - Jayandcath said if I ever brought any near him ever again he'd never speak to me again. He was designated driver for the 5 hour trip to hennos...

 

[InCider]

Hi Incider,

Can you give me any tips on how you make your ciders? Mine have been a mixture of store bought preservative free juice and a blend of apples juiced by me. I'm aiming for the next one to be entirely fresh apples juiced by me. I normally ferment with white wine yeast and add lactose, don't use sulphites and treat it like a lager (low long ferment, cold condition etc). They've turned out well but there's always room for improvement.

The main thing I'm after is apple flavour.

Hey Manticle, I use apple & pear juices, apples and extract if I'm short of time. I use brown sugar too. Ferment high teens as I do ales, and hope I never have one still fermenting in a keg again! I add some corn syrup as required. Never do I cancel the fermentation or adjust the bite of the cider, nor do I add lactose. It has led to a taste for dry, bitter ciders. :icon_cheers:

I used to hard carb, but now go for the soft carb unless I have guests who are used to commercial carbonation.

Cheers,

InCider.

 

[jayandcath]

"Ferment high teens as I do ales"

What bloody ales, you never make beer you cheeky *******.

Jay

 

[InCider]

What bloody ales, you never make beer you cheeky *******.

Jay

My bad - I meant 'Nightingales' a gose-style cider.

Cheers,

InCider.

 

[jayandcath]

Incider get onto (not like that) Bulp, he is a master at "Soft Carbonation", fairly tricky too. But makes the world of difference.

Jay

 

[InCider]

Incider get onto (not like that) Bulp, he is a master at "Soft Carbonation", fairly tricky too. But makes the world of difference.

Jay

I remember the SC Hefe we had at his place with Franko, Bindi, Screwy et al. Nice. OT!!!

 

[manticle]

Hey Manticle, I use apple & pear juices, apples and extract if I'm short of time. I use brown sugar too. Ferment high teens as I do ales, and hope I never have one still fermenting in a keg again! I add some corn syrup as required. Never do I cancel the fermentation or adjust the bite of the cider, nor do I add lactose. It has led to a taste for dry, bitter ciders. :icon_cheers:

I used to hard carb, but now go for the soft carb unless I have guests who are used to commercial carbonation.

Cheers,

InCider.

Cheers mate

 

[superdave]

Good timing with this thread. I'm about to make a cider so have now changed my apple from Sundowner to PL, already had GS down.