Cider- Fresh Juice Or Not

[Steve@PMF82]

This was my second Cider attempt

6L of Just Juice Apple Juice (long life - plastic bottles)
7.2L of Berri - Apple Juice (long life - plastic bottles)
tsp of yeast nutrient
150g of LDME
Wyeast 4766 smack pack

Fermented around 16 -18C for 11 days - 1054 to 1009 then bottled
Bubbled like crazy the whole time, not even a hint of a krausen.

Had a month at room temps, they are now living in cold storage.
After a couple of weeks in there its really starting to come good.
Good fruity apple taste, crisp but not too dry.
Should be even more pleasing come summer time.

I am interested in trying a cider with cultured coopers bottle yeast too?!

 

[stux]

This was my second Cider attempt

6L of Just Juice Apple Juice (long life - plastic bottles)
7.2L of Berri - Apple Juice (long life - plastic bottles)
tsp of yeast nutrient
150g of LDME
Wyeast 4766 smack pack

Fermented around 16 -18C for 11 days - 1054 to 1009 then bottled
Bubbled like crazy the whole time, not even a hint of a krausen.

Had a month at room temps, they are now living in cold storage.
After a couple of weeks in there its really starting to come good.
Good fruity apple taste, crisp but not too dry.
Should be even more pleasing come summer time.

I am interested in trying a cider with cultured coopers bottle yeast too?!

I would be concerned about exploding bottles :-\

Did the gravity actually stop at 1009, or did you just decide it was finished?

Unless you plan to keep the bottles under cold storage the whole time in which case its a good way to retain residual sweetness

 

[Steve@PMF82]

I would be concerned about exploding bottles :-\

Did the gravity actually stop at 1009, or did you just decide it was finished?

Unless you plan to keep the bottles under cold storage the whole time in which case its a good way to retain residual sweetness

It bubbled like crazy for the first 6 days.

SG was stable for the last 3 days.

EDIT : just looking at my notes - They were stored at 18 - 20C for 35 days , so if there was going to be bombs i would say they would have blown then.

They are not overcarbed at all so im pretty sure fermentation was complete.

 

[manticle]

I disagree, I made two identical ciders (Franko's recipe) one with 4766 and one with WW yeast. The 4766 was much more drier and tart and in my (and everyone else who tasted it) opinions it was far superior than the WW - which turned out a bit sweeter.

You disagree that my cider turned out with a bit of sweetness?

I had a portion of pears and Nashis in there too - as I said comparison of the yeasts is difficult when using different juice/fruit compositions each time.

 

[Phoney]

You disagree that my cider turned out with a bit of sweetness?

Not at all, I disagreed with:

To my palate the 4766 leaves a bit of sweetness which the wine yeast doesn't.

If you used an identical recipe the WW yeast will leave more sweetness.

 

[brett mccluskey]

Current batch of apple and pear juice cider seems to be stalling.

Used 5.4 litres of apple and 3 litres of pear juice, no preservatives or sugar added.
EC-1118 white wine yeast, rehydrated. Used approx more than 1 gram dry/3 litres, allowed to feed on a bit of juice and warm water before pitching. Vigorous fermentation for 5-6 days, been more than 10 days now. All yeast and cloudiness had settled out without refrigeration in the last 2 days.

OG= 1044
FG= 1010

Qn: why the higher FG? Is pear juice the culprit making it finish higher?! I've stirred up the yeast and left it to ferment long but is that an effect of adding pear juice? It's not tasting particularly sweet but isn't as dry as the last cider. Anybody know what's happening?
Btw, temps always 16 degrees.

Never used pear juice but I have heard it leaves things sweeter. You've used a fair bit of pear as well so that could explain it. My other guess would be maybe lack of nutrients at the beginning?

Cheers
Dave

Pear juice is sweeter than apple,and it's also neutral in flavour.Thats why it's the juice in canned fruit that's "in juice" I live on an apple and pear orchard,and i'll find out about the differing sugar contents tomorrow,From the "slave master" (manager) :beer:

 

[manticle]

Not at all, I disagreed with:




If you used an identical recipe the WW yeast will leave more sweetness.

That's why my qualifier is that it's hard to compare with different juice bases.

I guess becuase I didn't add lactose to the 4766 version, while the ww yeast version had 500g I was expecting drier (wasn't upset with the results - none have been over sweet). I now have a variety of store bought juices fermenting with some reserved 4766 (actually in CC). This one has some lactose too but no pear so we'll see how it goes.

I probably should have said ' to my palate the 4766 cider is sweeter' rather than suggested anything definite about the yeast when my experience of it is not vast. My experience of WW yeast (used for every other cider I've ever done besides my first brigalow) is that it tends to finish dry.

Will be trying the WY sweet mead yeast soon too.

 

[InCider]

Alright you two... :lol:

 

[manticle]

I don't trust boys who hang out behind bike sheds.

Many of them wear lycra.

 

[pk.sax]

errr... with my otherwise chaotic brewday recently, I did manage to put down a cloudy apple cider with some US05...

Next I will do the same with some 4766

I still have a few bottles of the one I did with white wine yeast

In all of them, everything would be the same except for the yeasts used and the temp the yeast packet dictates. Same juice brand, same nutrient... Well, as consistent as coles juice gets. We can do some side by side tastings then

 

[Chookers]

Hey I just bought a 2lt Bottle of Nudie Cloudy Apple Juice @ $5.99, says its 100% fresh apple juice (is not reconstituted), no preservatives or added vitamins, does not contain anything else other than apple juice. I also bought 3 cans of Goulburn Valley Pear juice @$2.59 per can total $13.77.

They had another apple juice which said it had been cold pasteurized? not heat treated so retains the apple flavour.

Has anyone used these to make cider, what was the result and would these work?

Do I really need to use pectinaise?? what happens if I dont use it??

 

[stux]

Hey I just bought a 2lt Bottle of Nudie Cloudy Apple Juice @ $5.99, says its 100% fresh apple juice (is not reconstituted), no preservatives or added vitamins, does not contain anything else other than apple juice. I also bought 3 cans of Goulburn Valley Pear juice @$2.59 per can total $13.77.

They had another apple juice which said it had been cold pasteurized? not heat treated so retains the apple flavour.

Has anyone used these to make cider, what was the result and would these work?

Do I really need to use pectinaise?? what happens if I dont use it??

I don't think you need to use pectinaise with apple juice. Don't know about Pear Juice. I think the pectinaise helps break down the cell walls to get the fruit juice out for fermenting.

 

[Chookers]

I don't think you need to use pectinaise with apple juice. Don't know about Pear Juice. I think the pectinaise helps break down the cell walls to get the fruit juice out for fermenting.

I thought it was a clearing agent, like the pectin makes it cloudy or something?

 

[stux]

I thought it was a clearing agent, like the pectin makes it cloudy or something?

Pectic Enzyme:
The enzymes such as pectinase that hydrolyze the large pectin molecules.

Pectin:
A heavy, colloidal substance found in most ripe fruit which promotes the formation of gelatinous solutions and hazes in the finished wine. Fermenting fruit pulps with high pectin content, such as apples, should be treated with pectic enzyme, especially if the pulp is boiled to extract the fruit flavor (boiling releases the pectin, while pectic enzymes destroy it).

Pectinase:
An enzyme that catalyzes the hydrolysis of pectin molecules.

I think I was getting confused... It might be you need to boil to release the sugar, and then you need to use pectic enzyme to get rid of the jelly

The Basic Concept of Winemaking

Conceptually, winemaking is quite simple. You combine a flavored juice with sugar, acid, tannin, and yeast, remove any pectin present, and allow the yeast to do what it naturally does with as little exposure to air and contaminates as possible. When the yeast is done, the result is wine. Conceptually, that's all there is to it. In reality, it's a bit more involved. There are subtleties to consider -- like proportions, for example, and dead yeast cells, pectin haze, suspended particulants, and a host of other things. Still, it's a simple concept.

We say that a wine's base is that from which the primary flavor of the wine is derived. Usually, that base is a fruit. In nature, there is only one fruit which provides all the required ingredients for making wine, and that's the grape. The grape has (or can have) the right amount of natural sugar, the right amount of natural acids, it's own flavor and tannin, and it hasn't got any pesty pectin. Best of all, it even comes with its own yeast. That powdery coating covering grapes is wild yeast, and it is sufficient to start and finish fermentation. Not all grapes, however, are created equal. Some will have an abundance of natural sugar and some will be deficient. Some wild yeasts will carry fermentation to 10% alcohol before the alcohol kills them off, but some will only get to 6%. Some have lots of tannin -- too much, really -- and some will fall short. Still -- and we are still speaking conceptually -- the grape is the perfect winemaking base. All others fall short in one aspect or several. In essence, then, the "art" of making wine is to optimize the various aspects in order to make great wine.

The various aspects to be optimized depend on what kind of wine one is making and the quality of the various ingredients. The remainder of this page will examine some of them.

So, basically, if Pectin is present in the fruitjuice you are trying to ferment, then you need to remove the pectin with a pectic enzyme.

Pectin Haze: The most common cause of a haze in wine is the presence of pectin, which forms gelatinous solutions in the wine. The problem is aggravated if the must is initially boiled to extract flavor, color or both. To check if a haze is pectin in origin, add 3-4 fluid ounces of methylated spirit to a fluid ounce of wine. If jelly-like clots or strings form, then the problem is most likely pectin and should be treated.

To treat the wine, for each gallon of wine draw off one cup of wine and stir into it teaspoon of pectic enzyme. Set the treated sample in a warm place (70-80 F.) and stir hourly for four hours. Strain the sample through sterilized muslin cloth and add to the bulk of the wine. Leave the wine at 70 F. for 4-5 days. The haze should clear. If it does not, strain the wine through sterilized muslin cloth and then through a vacuum-pumped filter. If it still does not clarify, the problem was misdiagnosed.

Pectin hazes can be prevented by adding pectic enzymes to the must 12 hours before adding the wine yeast. One teaspoon of enzyme per gallon of must is usually enough, but some musts require 1-1/2 teaspoons.

Country Wine recipes will generally tell you how to extract the 'flavour' from your base ingredients to create the must, and they also say if you need pectic enzymes or not.

 

[Chookers]

Ok, well I will get some Pectinaise then.. and I'll have to get somemore apple juice now because I start to drink the Nudie and it wont be enough now.. :lol:

I must say I was surprised to find a juice which is not made from concentrate and does not contain any added water or vitamins/preservatives.. Im pretty impressed by it.

The Goulburn Valley tinned pear juice is also 100% juice, and its Aussie made too.. I'll have to buy more tins aswell cause you know Im gonna drink one of those too.

I plan on making apple beer as soon as one of my demi's is freed up. and Cyser.. (is that right apple mead?) I would like to try my hand at cider too.. there are too many recipes and not enough Demijohns or bottles for that matter.. so Im going to have to prioritise.

 

[manticle]

The cold pasteurised stuff is probably preshafruit. Very expensive but lovely.

I have a cider I bottled on Saturday which uses a variety of juices including the nudie, a 100% organic tasmanian apple one, some preshafruit and some cheaper preserve free juice.

I didn't use any pectinase. I think it helps clarify and also helps with slow cool fermentation - something used a lot in french cidermaking. I've never used it in any of my ciders so nothing drastic will happen.

 

[argon]

I just acquired an expensive juicer on the weekend that was given to a friend... used about twice and is unwanted by him.

The plan is to grab a few kg apples form the local markets that sell for $1kg and top up with Berri Juice or similar.

I figure that the juicer makes about 500ml from 5 apples which equals a little under a kg. So maybe 10L of fresh juice and 10L of bottled juice.

Anyone got any experience... special tips for using fresh made juice?

 

[manticle]

As you seem to have already decided - do a small batch and see if the juicer is up to it.

Have tried to do full batches before and seriously the most pain I've had while brewing. Each time has resulted in necessarily topping up with store-bought.

Select a variety of apples - grannies, pink ladys etc. You want acid, sweeteness, tannic if you can. Chuck in a few pears for sweetness.

I like to allow a crust to form for a day or so before pitching. I rack from this crust then pitch. I don't use campden/sulphites - I compensate for this by making an active starter with my yeast and pitching. Do this inside one of your juice bottles .

Use some yeast nutrient. Ferment cool. Cold condition.

Traditional cidermaking uses a scratter to break the apple up into small pieces and then a press to extract juice. Juicers I've used have been pretty inneficient at extracting juice. I will be sticking to store bought juice until i have built myself a press (can use my grape crusher for the scratting).

 

[argon]

Thanks manticle... My first batch of bottled juice cider turned out nicely, but thought cause I now have access to pretty good juicer thati'd give it a shot. I added nutrient, but didn't do an active starter last time. I'll take on your advice and only do a small batch to start. If i like the results., then I'll do a full size in the future.

The juicer is pretty damn easy to use. Don't have to cut the apples. They just go in whole and spit out juice on one side and the dry solids the other. 500ml took all of about 30secs. Can't imagine it being too hard to make 10L or so.

 

[manticle]

What's the model? Might be easier than making myself a press (as much fun and frustration making a press might entail).