Cider- Fresh Juice Or Not

[manticle]

I'm far from expert but I enjoy making and drinking them. Generally no need for the extra sugar - they dry right out anyway and starting gravity of straight juice is usually around 1050. Can get below 1000 too so alc level will be reasonable. Sugar is superfluous in my opinion (and the opinion of many other cider makers).

100g seems like a lot of nutrient although I guess I only ever measure out a shake or a sprinkle.

Otherwise I reckon she should be tasty. Will you use all the cake or just some?

 

[argon]

I would say whatever yeast you're using, aim for the cool end of that. I regularly use white wine yeast and aim for around 14 degrees. Recently fermented one from a slant of 4766 and was told 14 might be too low but it was fermented almost side by side with a simple cider using the wine yeast and seemed to move along ok. Down to 1000 and being cold conditioned now.

I reckon treating it a bit like a lager makes it throw less odd flavours and needs less conditioning time - Looking at trying a lager yeast with one in the near future (before the weather goes nuts in summer).

I think 15-16 should be fine. Did you make a starter or use any sulphites?

Nah... no starter and no sulphites. Maybe should have done a starter... but that's my laziness creeping in again.

reckon treating it a bit like a lager makes it throw less odd flavours

That was the plan... do it as cool as possible... Wyeast tells me 15-24... so not much help there. It's for the mrs and i was after something reasonably dry and "wine like" not too much fruitiness.

good to hear that it will still kick along nicely even at these temps... think i'll just forget about it for the next few weeks. take some samples and see how she goes.

 

[manticle]

Nah... no starter and no sulphites. Maybe should have done a starter... but that's my laziness creeping in again.



That was the plan... do it as cool as possible... Wyeast tells me 15-24... so not much help there. It's for the mrs and i was after something reasonably dry and "wine like" not too much fruitiness.

good to hear that it will still kick along nicely even at these temps... think i'll just forget about it for the next few weeks. take some samples and see how she goes.

I do active starters for mine. Sulphites are meant to kill any wild yeasts (not an issue really if using store bought pasteurised) but I find they give me a headache and take a while to dissipate. Just thought if you had added some that it may have retarded the 4766. If it says 15-24 then she should be right where she is. I'd say let her go and you should end up with exactly what you're chasing

 

[argon]

I do active starters for mine. Sulphites are meant to kill any wild yeasts (not an issue really if using store bought pasteurised) but I find they give me a headache and take a while to dissipate. Just thought if you had added some that it may have retarded the 4766. If it says 15-24 then she should be right where she is. I'd say let her go and you should end up with exactly what you're chasing

Golden... will make my life alot easier having something on tap for the mrs. Not a beer drinker and wants something she can get into. Everytime i hand her a beer she turns up her nose and says, "ewww it tastes like VB" God i hope not!!!

next try will be a wheat beer for her... seemed to like Weihenstephaner Hefeweissbier

 

[beerbrewer76543]

I'm far from expert but I enjoy making and drinking them. Generally no need for the extra sugar - they dry right out anyway and starting gravity of straight juice is usually around 1050. Can get below 1000 too so alc level will be reasonable. Sugar is superfluous in my opinion (and the opinion of many other cider makers).

100g seems like a lot of nutrient although I guess I only ever measure out a shake or a sprinkle.

Otherwise I reckon she should be tasty. Will you use all the cake or just some?

Ok cool, no extra sugar makes it easy. the yeast nutrient comes in 100g packs so I guess if I dont need that much I could save half for a future brew

I'll probably swish the last bit of kolsch around and try to pick up as much yeast as I can without picking up any hops then pour off the beer once it settles then pitch the whole lot into the cider. A big pitch at low temps should avoid excess esters from the Kolsch yeast... Here's hoping!

Cheers :beer:

 

[Airgead]

Ok cool, no extra sugar makes it easy. the yeast nutrient comes in 100g packs so I guess if I dont need that much I could save half for a future brew

Cheers :beer:

The nutrient may come in 100g packs but the dosage rate isn't 100g/batch. There should be some instructions on the pack. Most will say something like a teaspoon for 20l. The one I have has a dosage rate of 40g/100l (yes 100l). So 8g in a 20l batch. There should be enough in that 100g pack of yours for quite a few brews. I have no idea what adding the whole packet will do to a brew. It may leave a chemical taste behind as there si no way the yeast will consume that much nutrient and there will be heaps left in the finished brew.

Oh.. and I ferment 4766 cool too. Lower end of the range. Usually around 16c.

Cheers
Dave

 

[pk.sax]

Ive got some cider fermenting - wih airlocks - only thing is, no bloody krausen. Fermentation activity is vigorous. The thing is bubbling madly for the past two days at 16 degrees. Using white wine yeast again. Can see all those bubbles risigthrough the juice like they all need to get somewhere real fast. There is ~ 7-8 mm of yeast grub on the bottom of the carboys.
Using normal LL apple and pear juice mix this time, OG was 1044.

Qns:
1) why no karusen? Cloudy cider had craploads of krausen. Same yeast used (same packet even).

2) why so little trub? The bubbling and fermentation is as vigorous if not more than the cloudy one. Bafflig me why the trub is so miniscule.

3) I'm expecting this one to finish real low gravity like manticle says his' do. Considering this one is more normal cheap type juice. Is that reasonable?

 

[argon]

Ive got some cider fermenting - wih airlocks - only thing is, no bloody krausen. Fermentation activity is vigorous. The thing is bubbling madly for the past two days at 16 degrees. Using white wine yeast again. Can see all those bubbles risigthrough the juice like they all need to get somewhere real fast. There is ~ 7-8 mm of yeast grub on the bottom of the carboys.
Using normal LL apple and pear juice mix this time, OG was 1044.

Qns:
1) why no karusen? Cloudy cider had craploads of krausen. Same yeast used (same packet even).

2) why so little trub? The bubbling and fermentation is as vigorous if not more than the cloudy one. Bafflig me why the trub is so miniscule.

3) I'm expecting this one to finish real low gravity like manticle says his' do. Considering this one is more normal cheap type juice. Is that reasonable?

I filtered and kegged my first simple cider a couple of nights ago;

1 i use glad wrap and I didn't really get much of a krausen... just a little frothing on the surface... nothing like beer.. not worried though it fermented well enough
2 there was practically zero trub... just a clean yeast cake on the base of the fermenter
3 finished at 1004 from 1050 for 6.1% abv doesn't taste too dry... i reckon just right for my tastes

i reckon you've got nothing to worry about

 

[pk.sax]

Aha, good to see its consistent. Was differen from the last one I made in this carboy - cloudy cider, so was a bit puzzled by the differences. Maybe someday I'll chance upon an explanation of why some fermentable cause larger yeast cakes (or trubs) than others. Cheers Argon.

 

[Pollux]

I often throw together a keg filler by combining 6 * 3L coles brand bottles of juice (either apple, apple/blackcurrant or a blend of those two) and just a couple of my baggies of US05 (I buy it by the 500g block and split it into 7g bags when I open it.

It's not Bulmers or Magners, but I'd call it better than that 5 seeds ****.

 

[hazard]

Ive got some cider fermenting - wih airlocks - only thing is, no bloody krausen. Fermentation activity is vigorous. The thing is bubbling madly for the past two days at 16 degrees. Using white wine yeast again. Can see all those bubbles risigthrough the juice like they all need to get somewhere real fast. There is ~ 7-8 mm of yeast grub on the bottom of the carboys.
Using normal LL apple and pear juice mix this time, OG was 1044.

Qns:
1) why no karusen? Cloudy cider had craploads of krausen. Same yeast used (same packet even).

2) why so little trub? The bubbling and fermentation is as vigorous if not more than the cloudy one. Bafflig me why the trub is so miniscule.

3) I'm expecting this one to finish real low gravity like manticle says his' do. Considering this one is more normal cheap type juice. Is that reasonable?

I made a cider last weekend - 21L of Berri Apple/pear juice, plus 300g extract boiled with some vanilla, cloves and cinammon (based on a Bribie recipe i think). Used some 1056 slurry I had (was originally Safale US05, but I harvested the yeast) and after 3 days has a nice full krausen. I'm using glad wrap, there is 23L of liquid in a 30L fermenter, and krausen is right up to the top of the fermenter. Used US05 slurry because:
a. that is what I had
b. I would prefer something less than totally dry so kept away from wine or champaigne yeast.

oh, I also added some old packets of yeast to the boil to act as a nutrient. So my big krausen could be due to:
1. US05 yeast
2. additional yeast hulls, helping fermentation along
3. additional malt added to the cider

I tried to make a Coopers SA recently with recultured Coppers yeast. I didn't put in enough hops, and the taste is doominated pear esters (not badactually, but not what i was aiming for!), so this might be the best thing for a cider - will try Coppers yeast next time.

 

[pk.sax]

Hmnnnn.... Might have to give ale yeast a go on the next one

I particularly like the easy fermentability of cider, no stuck fermentations so far, very visible activity. Easy peasy really. Wine yeas does give the temp tolerance tho. Still, worth experimenting new yeast

 

[Airgead]

Aha, good to see its consistent. Was differen from the last one I made in this carboy - cloudy cider, so was a bit puzzled by the differences. Maybe someday I'll chance upon an explanation of why some fermentable cause larger yeast cakes (or trubs) than others. Cheers Argon.

Its the proteins (or lack of them). Beer throws a good head because the proteins stabilise the foam and allow it to last long enough to form a head. Clear apple juice has very little in it to stabilise a foam so there is no head on a finsihed cider and no krausen on a fermenting one. The little bits of apple pulp in a cloudy juice help stabilise the foam so a cloudy juice will have a karausen while fermenting but once it finishes and drops clear the cider won't hold a head.

The difference in the size of the yeast cake depends on how much the yeast grows and how well it flocculates. Poor floculaters tend to have a less compact (and hence larger looking) yeast cake.

Cheers
Dave

 

[pk.sax]

Hmnnnnnnnn... Tha poses me more and more things to research into to make a different cider. Perhaps craft one that retains some head while retaining the lightness. Maybe add some proteins from a beer to it as you point them resp for retaining the head Dave. When I work up the goods to do an AG batch, maybe I'll skim some of the protein foam off and add to a batch of cider At any rate, I will have some cider to bring along end of this month

 

[Airgead]

Hmnnnnnnnn... Tha poses me more and more things to research into to make a different cider. Perhaps craft one that retains some head while retaining the lightness. Maybe add some proteins from a beer to it as you point them resp for retaining the head Dave. When I work up the goods to do an AG batch, maybe I'll skim some of the protein foam off and add to a batch of cider At any rate, I will have some cider to bring along end of this month

I'm not sure that adding skimmed trub from a beer will be all that good for the taste of the cider. Maybe adding some malt would be a better way...

Most ciders don't hold a head so I wouldn't worry too much about it. Actually, beer is about the only drink that will hold a head - sparkling wines, ciders, perrys... no head.

Cheers
Dave

 

[pk.sax]

Kk... I'll taste anything I put in there before I do. I've read here abt ppl adding dry ME to their cider, but cider for me is absolutely crisp and light. Something u can chug a half litre of down without a pause. I def don't want any heaviness in a cider, juicy fluffiness is a different matter. Hmnnn.

 

[pk.sax]

Current batch of apple and pear juice cider seems to be stalling.

Used 5.4 litres of apple and 3 litres of pear juice, no preservatives or sugar added.
EC-1118 white wine yeast, rehydrated. Used approx more than 1 gram dry/3 litres, allowed to feed on a bit of juice and warm water before pitching. Vigorous fermentation for 5-6 days, been more than 10 days now. All yeast and cloudiness had settled out without refrigeration in the last 2 days.

OG= 1044
FG= 1010

Qn: why the higher FG? Is pear juice the culprit making it finish higher?! I've stirred up the yeast and left it to ferment long but is that an effect of adding pear juice? It's not tasting particularly sweet but isn't as dry as the last cider. Anybody know what's happening?
Btw, temps always 16 degrees.

 

[Airgead]

Current batch of apple and pear juice cider seems to be stalling.

Used 5.4 litres of apple and 3 litres of pear juice, no preservatives or sugar added.
EC-1118 white wine yeast, rehydrated. Used approx more than 1 gram dry/3 litres, allowed to feed on a bit of juice and warm water before pitching. Vigorous fermentation for 5-6 days, been more than 10 days now. All yeast and cloudiness had settled out without refrigeration in the last 2 days.

OG= 1044
FG= 1010

Qn: why the higher FG? Is pear juice the culprit making it finish higher?! I've stirred up the yeast and left it to ferment long but is that an effect of adding pear juice? It's not tasting particularly sweet but isn't as dry as the last cider. Anybody know what's happening?
Btw, temps always 16 degrees.

Never used pear juice but I have heard it leaves things sweeter. You've used a fair bit of pear as well so that could explain it. My other guess would be maybe lack of nutrients at the beginning?

Cheers
Dave

 

[pk.sax]

Hmnnn. Possible, I'll keep watching it. Yeast didn't settle out during the day today and the airlock has me believe that its been making more CO2. I did add the recommended mat of nutrient in the beginning so.... Hmnnn

Ur right tho, its a lot of pear, it was on spl 50/50 apple pear juice, I added more apple to make up the volume. Thnx. Who knows, by the time it dries out I might have enough bottles again! Hehe

 

[Airgead]

Hmnnn. Possible, I'll keep watching it. Yeast didn't settle out during the day today and the airlock has me believe that its been making more CO2. I did add the recommended mat of nutrient in the beginning so.... Hmnnn

Ur right tho, its a lot of pear, it was on spl 50/50 apple pear juice, I added more apple to make up the volume. Thnx. Who knows, by the time it dries out I might have enough bottles again! Hehe

Interested to know how it comes out. Pear is on my list of things to experiment with next year. I was planning to split my batch and do half with pear and half all apple. I'll use juice from the same crush for both batches so the only difference will be the pear. I was thinking maybe 10% pear though.

This is the difficulty with doing cider from apples. You only get one shot at it each year.

Cheers
Dave