Cider Advice Requested

[DJbrewer]

hello all!

I am new to brewing and have decided to start with a cider (My wife and I are not big beer drinkers). I have the Coopers kit.
I was hoping for some advice.

First I was thinking of using the Black Rock Cider kit and add some spices but then thought, "Heh! Why not go "almost first principles" and brew from apple juice."

Two questions I have are:
1. how long does it take to go from start to drinking? I hope to get get it started tomorrow night (28 April) and start drinking on about 20 June. That is about 7-8 weeks from mixing ingredients to drinking. Is that reasonable?

2. I have read that champagne yeast produces a very dry cider. I would like to produce a cider that is not too dry but not too sweet, either. Any tips on getting that mix? My thoughts on the ingredients are:

Option 1:
12 L apple juice (berri, no preservatives)
7 L apple/pear juice (berri, no preservatives)
Wyeast 4766 (1 pack)
5g Yeast nutrient
500g white sugar
500g brown sugar (to give some body and it is not as sweet as white sugar)
1 lemon (peeled and sliced)
1 stick cinnamon
6 cloves
50g ginger

The sliced lemon will just left in a cheescloth in the fermenter.

With the ginger, cinnamon and cloves added to dissolved sugar at 100 degrees C for about 5-10 minutes, and then strained out. I assume you do not leave the ginger/cinnamon/cloves in the fermenter whilst the cider is fermenting ?


Option 2: Black Rock Cider
7 L apple juice (berri, no preservatives)
2.4 L apple/pear juice (berri, no preservatives)
Water (to make up to 18L)
Wyeast 4766 (1 pack)
5g Yeast nutrient
500g white sugar
500g brown sugar (to give some body and it is not as sweet as white sugar)
1 lemon (peeled and sliced)
1 stick cinnamon
6 cloves
50g ginger

Options 3 and 4:
- As above but using dry Champagne yeast in place og Wyeast 4766
- using 1 kg white sugar instead of 500g white/500g brown


Any advice is welcome.

cheers,
DJbrewer

 

[Airgead]

hello all!

I am new to brewing and have decided to start with a cider (My wife and I are not big beer drinkers). I have the Coopers kit.
I was hoping for some advice.


Any advice is welcome.

cheers,
DJbrewer

I'd go with option 1 but loose the additional sugar. You shouldn't need it. The juice should have enough natural sugars to ferment out to around 5%ABV or so.

The cider kits are all pretty lousy. The only one I have used that was halfway decent was the Austro Vino one sold through ibrew (ibrew.com.au).

I'm assuming the lemon is to add a little acidity to the finished cider? If so I suspect one won't be enough. Commercial apple juice has very low acid and tannin so it will make a fairly bland cider. You might want to look at getting some citric and/or mallic acid from the LHBS and adjusting the acid once it has finished fermenting. You can also get grape tannin and add some of that as well to add a bit of character.

I am making an all juice cider at the moment using 5l of crab apple juice to add some acidity and tannin.

Cheers
Dave

 

[DJbrewer]

I'd go with option 1 but loose the additional sugar. You shouldn't need it. The juice should have enough natural sugars to ferment out to around 5%ABV or so.

The cider kits are all pretty lousy. The only one I have used that was halfway decent was the Austro Vino one sold through ibrew (ibrew.com.au).

I'm assuming the lemon is to add a little acidity to the finished cider? If so I suspect one won't be enough. Commercial apple juice has very low acid and tannin so it will make a fairly bland cider. You might want to look at getting some citric and/or mallic acid from the LHBS and adjusting the acid once it has finished fermenting. You can also get grape tannin and add some of that as well to add a bit of character.

I am making an all juice cider at the moment using 5l of crab apple juice to add some acidity and tannin.

Cheers
Dave

Thanks, Dave, for the reply.
I did not think the apple juice would be sweet enough but perhaps with the pear juice will help?
I saw some recipes here that suggested only 2 x lemons. not sure what to do now, probably go with 2 x lemons and then adjust later as you suggest.
Crab apple juice? where do you get that? i always thought crab apples were tart but I really have no idea.



i will check out my LHBS tomorrow.

so, am I right about the spices- add to boiling water for a few minutes then strain out and add the liquid to the mix?
and add the lemons to the fermenter ?

do you think is 7-8 weeks enough from mix to drink?

this should be interesting...

and thanks for any other advice...

cheers,
DJbrewer

 

[joel3282]

Hey

I've just started exploring the world of cider making. My first attempt involved using apple juice (Mostly granny smith with some pink lady) straight from a local orchard/juicer and no sugar added and with a champagne yeast. Stupid me forgot to test the level of sugar before ferment and it turned out there wasn't enough sugar and then end result was an apple cider of about 2 %. However, the color and acidity were perfect!! and it was very dry. So I never have 30 L of light cider.

I have just put on a second cider this time with my own pressed golden delicous apples which have a potential alcohol of 7 % or 12.5 grams of sugar / litre!!

The moral of my story check for sugar levels before ferment is a must!!! especially commercial juices which aren't that high in sugar.

7-8 weeks is plenty of time also recommend using some bentonite (post ferment) for clarity and store in the fridge.

Cheers
joel

Thanks, Dave, for the reply.
I did not think the apple juice would be sweet enough but perhaps with the pear juice will help?
I saw some recipes here that suggested only 2 x lemons. not sure what to do now, probably go with 2 x lemons and then adjust later as you suggest.
Crab apple juice? where do you get that? i always thought crab apples were tart but I really have no idea.



i will check out my LHBS tomorrow.

so, am I right about the spices- add to boiling water for a few minutes then strain out and add the liquid to the mix?
and add the lemons to the fermenter ?

do you think is 7-8 weeks enough from mix to drink?

this should be interesting...

and thanks for any other advice...

cheers,
DJbrewer

 

[Verbyla]

I'd go with the 1st option as I've found that using just juice can make a far nicer cider than a kit.

I would add some sugar as the juice alone doesn't always have enough sugar and you may only get 2%-3% alcohol.

Only things I'd change with your original recipe is get rid of the ginger. I've personally found that it can destroy a cider if the correct amount isn't used. Your better of experimenting in small amounts with it.

I'd also suggest to use 750 grams of sugar(I use dextrose) to increase the alcohol percentage and add 250-350grams of lactose which is a sugar that doesn't ferment and will sweeten your cider.

Its a good choice of yeast from what i've heard but i haven't used it myself.

I think 7-8 weeks should be enough for it to be drinkable but you may find it needs longer to reach its full potential.

 

[manticle]

@DJ - I'm new to brewing juice/fresh apple based ciders myself (started no 2 on the weekend)
There are a few bits of information I have picked up.
First while brown sugar is less sweet when you eat it, it will actually contribute more to the sweetness of the brew than white as not all of it will ferment out (leaving residual sugar). You can use this to add sweetness to the brew. Refined sugars like dextrose and white sugar will almost completely ferment out which is what adds to dryness and ABV.
You can use a sugar like lactose to add sweetness (non-fermentable) or some malt. Some people report having used malt with success, some don't like the idea. It's not traditional but that in itself shouldn't deter a new brewer from experimenting. There will also be a some sugar in the fruit juice so you'd need to measure the gravity of the total volume to see if you'll be in the region you want after adding your sugars. You may need to add more sugar or you may need to add more water. You'll need to account for the unfermentablity of some sugars if you do add things like lactose etc.

7-8 weeks is probably enough but cider seems to take a bit longer than beer to come into its own so the longer you leave it the better.

I have a recipe on the strongbow clone page which is the one I'm making at the moment. There's also some good tips linked in there.

 

[DJbrewer]

thanks, everyone, for the detailed replies.

looks like the Black Rock Cider is out.

Thanks for the tips on added sugar. I will test pre-ferment and then decide.
Regarding the ginger- i can imagine that experimentation ginger could be a problem. it certainly ruins a lot of juices! i found a recipe that used 90g so thought that 50g might just give it some bite. happy to leave it out, though. why make things hard for myself...?


*Two last things:
- do the cinnamon and cloves go in the fermenter or just boil teh spices, strain out and add the liquid only to the fermenter?
- do I use carb drops or add a teaspoon of something to the bottles?



Based upon your replies I have changed the ingredients:

12 L apple juice (berri, no preservatives)
7 L apple/pear juice (berri, no preservatives)
Wyeast 4766 (1 pack)
5g Yeast nutrient
500g white sugar depending upon pre-ferment levels
250g lactose
maybe 2 x lemon (peeled and sliced)
1 stick cinnamon
6 cloves


If the lemon does nothing to the taste I have probably not ruined it.

looking forward to getting started tonight.

 

[RdeVjun]

*Two last things:
- do the cinnamon and cloves go in the fermenter or just boil teh spices, strain out and add the liquid only to the fermenter?
- do I use carb drops or add a teaspoon of something to the bottles?

Gooday! I can't say for sure, I've never used either of those spices. When I use Star Anise in dry stout however :icon_drool2: , I treat it like flavour hops and add to the boil at about 20 minutes, works fine. If you're not doing a boil, I'd steep them in 1/2 to 1 litre of boiling water for 1/2 to 1 hour and then just add the whole lot to the fermenter, and I wouldn't strain it, but that's just me. If you make sure they're sanitised, it shouldn't be any problem, this can be achieved (or at least partly) by starting with boiling water and your spices in a coffee plunger (there's no need to plunge it- I do so with hops though), then keeping your steeping fluid hot by insulating it with a towel, or just use a pre-heated thermos instead.

Apropos the priming sugar, if you think you need finer carbonation control use sugar and I'd actually recommend bulk priming, if not, just use the drops for simplicity. If metering sugar directly into the bottle, I think its best to measure it as accurately as you can. At this early stage in your career, drops would be quite ok, its a relatively coarse priming method, but makes it very, very simple.

Its interesting to experiment with these sorts of additions, and good to see folks giving it a whirl, just keep in mind it can really muddy the waters if you're only just getting a handle on brewing techniques. It can be quite confusing trying to integrate several experiments into just a handful of brews and then working out what you prefer or what worked and what didn't, there's multiple factors at play and they're all interacting to some degree too. I'm all for it though, the diversity in styles and different twists we see around these boards are great! :icon_cheers:

Edit: Clarifying plunger usage.

 

[Airgead]

*Two last things:
- do the cinnamon and cloves go in the fermenter or just boil teh spices, strain out and add the liquid only to the fermenter?
- do I use carb drops or add a teaspoon of something to the bottles?

If you really want to control the amount of spice you can make up a strong spice tea (steep in hot water for 10 mins or so) and add little by little tasting each time until you have enough in there.

Oh and the crab apple juice - I have a tree. There's a post about it in here - http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=31622

Cheers
Dave

 

[DJbrewer]

Gooday! I can't say for sure, I've never used either of those spices. When I use Star Anise in dry stout however :icon_drool2: , I treat it like flavour hops and add to the boil at about 20 minutes, works fine. If you're not doing a boil, I'd steep them in 1/2 to 1 litre of boiling water for 1/2 to 1 hour and then just add the whole lot to the fermenter, and I wouldn't strain it, but that's just me. If you make sure they're sanitised, it shouldn't be any problem, this can be achieved (or at least partly) by starting with boiling water and your spices in a coffee plunger (there's no need to plunge it- I do so with hops though), then keeping your steeping fluid hot by insulating it with a towel, or just use a pre-heated thermos instead.

Apropos the priming sugar, if you think you need finer carbonation control use sugar and I'd actually recommend bulk priming, if not, just use the drops for simplicity. If metering sugar directly into the bottle, I think its best to measure it as accurately as you can. At this early stage in your career, drops would be quite ok, its a relatively coarse priming method, but makes it very, very simple.

Its interesting to experiment with these sorts of additions, and good to see folks giving it a whirl, just keep in mind it can really muddy the waters if you're only just getting a handle on brewing techniques. It can be quite confusing trying to integrate several experiments into just a handful of brews and then working out what you prefer or what worked and what didn't, there's multiple factors at play and they're all interacting to some degree too. I'm all for it though, the diversity in styles and different twists we see around these boards are great! :icon_cheers:

Edit: Clarifying plunger usage.

thanks for your reply.

In reverse order: experimenting so early in my brewing career. i know- it seems pretty daft. :lol: hopefully I will have a fairly "standard"/well tried recipe by tonight...

spices- i like the sound of a spiced cider. thanks for the tips on sanitising. Since I am pretty obsessive abotu cleanliness I will probably boil the spices for a few minute, let them steep then add the lot. unless I do what the next poster suggested and add it as a tea.
and nutrient today so if i can get out of here early I will head up to my LHBS to get some latose and a couple of other bits and bobs (sanitiser, etc.).

cheers,
DJbrewer

 

[manticle]

Early on experimentation is good. Find what works and what doesn't, refine processes and keep learning.

 

[DJbrewer]

If you really want to control the amount of spice you can make up a strong spice tea (steep in hot water for 10 mins or so) and add little by little tasting each time until you have enough in there.

Oh and the crab apple juice - I have a tree. There's a post about it in here - http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=31622

Cheers
Dave

hey, not a bad idea. this way I can get a taste I like before it starts fermenting. I do not want to overpower the apple flavour.
just read your crab apple thread. interestign read- informative about brewing and agriculture!

cheers,
DJbrewer

 

[DJbrewer]

Early on experimentation is good. Find what works and what doesn't, refine processes and keep learning.

very much a suck it and see kind of approach for this first go!

 

[Verbyla]

I'd use carb drops if your starting off. They are simple and do the job.

As for the cinnamon and clovers i boil them for 15-20 minutes and make sure there isn't to much liquid but enough so that they are submerged and then throw the hole lot in. I tend to add the spices a week after starting. I only do that as the guy at the brewery store told me its best to do that but i have no clue why this is.

Last tip. I've never used cloves but my advice to you would be to be cautious when using cloves as mother put them in meals before and they can be quite overpowering if to many are used. Not saying that your amount is to much though.

I've never used lemons but your reasoning behind using them sounds really appealing. Please do get back to us by keeping us updated and tell us how it goes.

Goodluck

 

[manticle]

Re: carbonation - I would either bulk prime (my preferred method) or use carb drops. I find teaspoons of sugar too messy and annoying.

Bulk priming is not as difficult as some might think and you CAN do it without a second fermenter despite all instructions suggesting racking to a different vessel.

 

[Melon]

My first 4 brews used the Black Rock Cider cans and it works fine if you add extra flavour in the form of more apple juice, otherwise its a bit watery. So if you've already bought it, don't throw it away just add it to the next brew.

Now I start a brew with 8 x 2L Coles apple juice bottles.

I experimented with adding malt but I wasn't keen on the results.

For testing recipies I'd recommend getting a 5L glass jug and bung from your LHBS. This should give you 4-6 bottles depending on how much air you leave in the necks.

I have one of those dual priming scoop/spoon things. I use 2 large scoops of dex per bottle. I've experimented with single scoops and it wasn't as carbonated as I wanted. 3 scoops didn't produce any noticeable increase in fizz even over 16 weeks.

When I started brewing I was disappointed with the flavours after only aging in the bottle for 2/3 weeks. I was wildly optimistic. These days I leave them at least 8-12 weeks and it's even been suggested here by others that 6 months aging really improves the flavours. It also give the yeast a chance to carbonate your beverage.

I've also found that keeping the bottles inside a cardboard box to keep them dark helps the yeast settle. When I had the bottles sitting in milk crates I found that the yeast would cling to the sides of the bottles that were lightest.

 

[DJbrewer]

Melon, I did not even think to get a 5L jug from my LHBS. I was there, too, today!
I won't throw out the Black Rock cider kit- I will try it next, maybe, if this does not turn out ok. Well, i need to drink some at the end of June so hopefully it will be enough time for some good taste to develop.

 

[DJbrewer]

Thanks, everyone, for all of the tips/advice.

Based upon comments in this thread, and elsewhere, the final mix was as follows:

12 L apple juice
7 L apple and pear juice
Wyeast 4766
1.5 (approx.) teaspoons Yeast Nutrient
120g Lactose
300g white sugar (not dextrose)
1 x cinnamon stick
1 x lemon


Notes:
- Yeast Nutrient from Craftbrewer. Boiled for 10 minutes with Cinnamon stick as instructed on pack
- Lactose content based upon calculation 10g/L = medium sweet cider. I had hoped for something a little dry
- Cinnamon was boiled for 20 minutes in 1L water. I then added the liquid and cinnamon stick to fermenter
- Lemon peel removed and added to fermenter. One lemon was probably not enough but let's see what happens
- no cloves

** OG came out to be: OG = 1.050

let's see how it goes!

cheers,
DJbrewer

 

[RdeVjun]

thanks for your reply.

In reverse order: experimenting so early in my brewing career. i know- it seems pretty daft. :lol: hopefully I will have a fairly "standard"/well tried recipe by tonight...
DJbrewer

No problems, glad you find this useful & good to see you're having a chop. By all means do this experiment, you're doing all the right things IMO and it sounds really interesting. In the past I've just been frustrated doing experiments and when after a few goes I didn't achieve the right balance of effects, usually flavour and aroma- wise, I didn't really know where to turn next and hit a few dead ends, so my caution is just a heads up for you based my own experiences. No one's said this idea is just plain barmy, so, there's not much left except 'chocks away'! (Which is probably what you've done by now!)

spices- i like the sound of a spiced cider. thanks for the tips on sanitising. Since I am pretty obsessive abotu cleanliness I will probably boil the spices for a few minute, let them steep then add the lot. unless I do what the next poster suggested and add it as a tea.

The short boil and steep would be fine, I'd reckon, pretty much what I did originally with anise and juniper in stout.
Just on the lemon, you're peeling it, right? So, the peel stays in or get tossed out? I'd keep them in myself, the rind is a fantastic source of different flavour and aroma (what's the reasonably common fancy european beer/s with orange peel in it? Anyone?). If the peel stays in, its probably not necessary but rather than just adding them to the fermenter, you could sanitise them with the spices, the juice is probably sanitary enough if you use a scrupulous process for extracting it or just slicing up the flesh.
Not sure if I'd boil with juice just on account of its lower pH and what it might do to your spice profile, although its probably not worth worrying about as you're adding SFA in the grand scheme of things; and anyway, lots of the more common boils are lower in pH, ditto for aromatics in cookery, at least I'd guess. (If you wanted to just add the juice/flesh to the fermenter, don't worry about this paragraph.)
Let us know how you get on with this, it sounds really interesting!

 

[manticle]

Hoegaarden (belgian witbier) has orange zest in it.