Cap With Rice Or Corn?

[NeilArge]

HNY all,

Earlier in 2009 I made a CAP using rice flakes as the adjunct. Overall, this is a nice dry beer but I have noticed that it is a little sweet. A mate observed the other day that is a bit 'cloying'. I'm wondering if anyone has made a CAP with rice flakes and also one using maize, and if there was any appreciable differences between the two that could be sheeted home to the use of one over the other.

Cheers

ToG

 

[Ross]

From my experience & I've done several side by side identical brews - corn gives a softer rounded finish, whereas rice turns really accentuates the hops & gives a crisper drier finish.

Cheers Ross

 

[Snow]

I concur with Ross's observations. Perhaps your excess sweetness has more to do with your mashing regime? It could also be diacetyl, which gives the impression of "sweetness". Or sometimes poor yeast management can lead to underattenuation which will leave residual sweetness in your finished beer.

Cheers - Snow

 

[Fourstar]

From my experience & I've done several side by side identical brews - corn gives a softer rounded finish, whereas rice turns really accentuates the hops & gives a crisper drier finish.
Cheers Ross

Pretty much spot on. High amounts of corn ive noticed (20%) can lend a sweet cornyness that can be quite intense if the beer is not highly carbonated. My current CAP was lacking spritzy carbonation and was rather intense. A higher carbonation helps lend a drying finish to its intense corn sweetness and balances it out.

As for your rice issue. its got me baffled, ive had the same results as ross for this one. Only underattenuation is all i can think of as the wort is usually quite sweet when rice is used. Post ferment however, its dry and crisp!

 

[NeilArge]

Pretty much spot on. High amounts of corn ive noticed (20%) can lend a sweet cornyness that can be quite intense if the beer is not highly carbonated. My current CAP was lacking spritzy carbonation and was rather intense. A higher carbonation helps lend a drying finish to its intense corn sweetness and balances it out.

As for your rice issue. its got me baffled, ive had the same results as ross for this one. Only underattenuation is all i can think of as the wort is usually quite sweet when rice is used. Post ferment however, its dry and crisp!

Thanks for that all. I would have expected the rice to lend a crispness to the beer. The hops do certainly come through nicely. I'll have to try another one tonight and then check my mashing regime. The answer may well lay there.

Thanks again

ToG

 

[NeilArge]

Thanks for that all. I would have expected the rice to lend a crispness to the beer. The hops do certainly come through nicely. I'll have to try another one tonight and then check my mashing regime. The answer may well lay there.

Thanks again

ToG

Just a quick follow-up. For some crazy reason I did a single decoction mash for that CAP which may have given me a higher gravity wort than normal. OG: 1.050; FG: 1.005. I used WY2007-Pilsen Lager.

ToG

 

[Tony]

I make a CAP with 25% maize.

I like to mash cool around 64 deg to get a good dry finnish and i love the sweetness of the corn. If you get the bitteness up around the 0.7:1 mark it will ballance.

Filter bright clear and as noted... a good carb.

1.048, 32 IBU. YUM!

 

[NeilArge]

I make a CAP with 25% maize.

I like to mash cool around 64 deg to get a good dry finnish and i love the sweetness of the corn. If you get the bitteness up around the 0.7:1 mark it will ballance.

Filter bright clear and as noted... a good carb.

1.048, 32 IBU. YUM!

Bloody hell, Tony! That's positively indecent at this time of night!

Looks luvverly, but.

ToG

 

[Bribie G]

According to the Encyclopedia Britannica 1911 edition (i.e. pre-Prohibition and thus the era of the CAP), discussing American brewing methods of the day:

In America the common system of brewing is one of infusion mashing combined with bottom fermentation. The method of mashing, however, though on infusion lines, differs appreciably from the English process. A very low initial heat—about 100 F. —at which the mash remains for about an hour, is employed. After this the temperature is rapidly raised to 153-156 F. by running in the boiling "cooker mash," i.e. raw grain wort from the converter. After a period the temperature is gradually increased to about 165 F. The very low initial heat, and the employment of relatively large quantities of readily transformable malt adjuncts, enable the American brewer to make use of a class of malt which would be considered quite unfit for brewing in an English brewery. The system of fermentation is very similar to the continental "lager" system, and the beer obtained bears some resemblance to the German product. To the English palate it is somewhat flavourless, but it is always retailed in exceedingly brilliant condition and at a proper temperature. There can be little doubt that every nation evolves a type of beer most suited to its climate and the temperament of the people, and in this respect the modern American beer is no exception. In regard to plant and mechanical arrangements generally, the modern American breweries may serve as an object-lesson to the European brewer, although there are certainly a number of breweries in the United Kingdom which need not fear comparison with the best American plants.

So they didn't do a decoction in the German style and after the initial rest a boiling slurry of 'cooker mash' which presumably would have been gelatinised maize or rice straight out of the cooker, was run into the mash tun to bring up the temperature, and proceed as per infusion mash. Interesting. I wonder if this could be done with modern two row highly modified malts, probably not, (edit: well not to the same extent as they were using six row barley I suppose) but it opens a rare window into a forgotten era.

 

[Fourstar]

So they didn't do a decoction in the German style and after the initial rest a boiling slurry of 'cooker mash' which presumably would have been gelatinised maize or rice straight out of the cooker, was run into the mash tun to bring up the temperature, and proceed as per infusion mash. Interesting. I wonder if this could be done with modern two row highly modified malts, probably not, (edit: well not to the same extent as they were using six row barley I suppose) but it opens a rare window into a forgotten era.

Hey Bribie,

Sounds like they did a 1 hour acid rest to drop the pH to acceptable levels (following traditional czech brewing methods) and then added a 'cereal mash' to the main mash tun to raise the temp to 67-68C. It was then raised to their sparge temps after their conversion period to 73deg to begin runoff.

You could copy this process quite easily by ignoring the acid rest then just add some brewing salts to your mash when you add your cereal mash to your main tun. This process of cereal mashing was simply used to pregelatinise the cereals and the use of corn was there to make up for the use of 6 row malt (afaik). In our world the cereal mash is not needed if you have pregelatinised cereals but only if you are fearful of losing efficiency in the tun by using raw/cooked polenta like we usually do.

You may gain some melanoidens from the cereal mash as its like a decoction as you boil it but either way you can sub this out with some melanoiden malt. for me to try and replicate this i would go for a malt bill rather tahn the above drawn out process with something like:

78% Pils
20% Corn
2% Melanoiden

Drop the pH of the main mash by adding CaCl2 or CaSO4 and then a balanced Cl:SO4 ratio for the final volume into the kettle to adjust the palate for the final product.

 

[Tony]

I usually use:

70% pils
25% Flaked maize
5% Carahell

FWH 10 IBU hallertau
22 IBU cluster @ 40 min
3/4g / liter hallertau at flame out.

good long 90 min boil and ferment with WLP833 at 10 deg.

The maize just goes in the mash. I do a 5 Min 55 deg protein rest then up to 64 deg. I mash out at mash temp and infuse to 71 for the sparge.

too easy.

cheers

 

[Fourstar]

I usually use:

70% pils
25% Flaked maize
5% Carahell

FWH 10 IBU hallertau
22 IBU cluster @ 40 min
3/4g / liter hallertau at flame out.

good long 90 min boil and ferment with WLP833 at 10 deg.

The maize just goes in the mash.

The joys of gelatinised flaked maize. Myself and bribie use polenta they we either dump into the mash tun direct (if it's a low % grist for me) or preboil it and then add to the mash to begin the gelatinisation process.

My best CAP to date was suprisingly made with Motueka! Fresh samples of this was decidedly a 'new world CAP'. Given 2 months the lemon/lime/citrus notes had mellowed well and the saaz profile began to shine through. Very quaffable indeed. Ive so got to reproduce this bad boy once again.

 

[jonocarroll]

Sounds like they did a 1 hour acid rest to drop the pH to acceptable levels (following traditional czech brewing methods) and then added a 'cereal mash' to the main mash tun to raise the temp to 67-68C. It was then raised to their sparge temps after their conversion period to 73deg to begin runoff.

You could copy this process quite easily by ignoring the acid rest then just add some brewing salts to your mash when you add your cereal mash to your main tun. This process of cereal mashing was simply used to pregelatinise the cereals and the use of corn was there to make up for the use of 6 row malt (afaik). In our world the cereal mash is not needed if you have pregelatinised cereals but only if you are fearful of losing efficiency in the tun by using raw/cooked polenta like we usually do.

You may gain some melanoidens from the cereal mash as its like a decoction as you boil it but either way you can sub this out with some melanoiden malt.

I did this cereal mash for my CAP, starting with dry, coarse polenta, boiled up and added as a decoction to raise to alpha rest. Have pitched it onto a 2112 yeastcake, and will try a hydrometer sample tonight. I made up a mild ale next and used 'instant polenta' - the cooked stuff. I'm not sure if it was the stiff mash or the amount of polenta I used, but I missed my gravity by about 6 points (extra long boil to make up for it).

I usually use:

70% pils
25% Flaked maize
5% Carahell

If I could get flaked maize, I'd use it. Perhaps I need to have some shipped in from a not-so-local HBS.

The maize just goes in the mash. I do a 5 Min 55 deg protein rest then up to 64 deg. I mash out at mash temp and infuse to 71 for the sparge.

While this is only a very quick protein rest, if you're using a fully modified malt (you most likely are) then you don't want a protein rest at all - you'll destroy all your proteins and kill your head retention

 

[Elbow]

Hey fellas,

On the subject of Maize/Polenta: I've been looking for the dried version in my local supermarkets, no joy so far, only the pre-cooked stuff in 1kg packets. The next brew i'm doing as a BIAB (cream ale) calls for 1kg of dried polenta. Will I need more of the pre-cooked stuff to get this amount?

 

[Fourstar]

I did this cereal mash for my CAP, starting with dry, coarse polenta, boiled up and added as a decoction to raise to alpha rest. Have pitched it onto a 2112 yeastcake, and will try a hydrometer sample tonight. I made up a mild ale next and used 'instant polenta' - the cooked stuff. I'm not sure if it was the stiff mash or the amount of polenta I used, but I missed my gravity by about 6 points (extra long boil to make up for it).


If I could get flaked maize, I'd use it. Perhaps I need to have some shipped in from a not-so-local HBS.


While this is only a very quick protein rest, if you're using a fully modified malt (you most likely are) then you don't want a protein rest at all - you'll destroy all your proteins and kill your head retention

Wehn you did the cereal mash it was like a decotion with some malted barley yes? or did you just 'precook/gelatinise' the corn?

As for the protein rest, the closer it is to 55deg for our malt modification the better as it emphasises medium chained proteins (body and head forming). If it was a protein rest closer to 50 deg he would be degrading the proteins into short chained ones. The benifit from a 55deg rest is increased wort clarity and some FAN, thats about it really.

 

[RdeVjun]

While this is only a very quick protein rest, if you're using a fully modified malt (you most likely are) then you don't want a protein rest at all - you'll destroy all your proteins and kill your head retention

Interesting point. Its getting a bit OT, but I've being doing a single decoction during a brief protein rest in my TTLs, just for the decoction flavour enhancement as I've been farting around with 100% base malt (TF's GP & MO, Bairds' Perle/ Pale). The heat added from ~3L of decoction when added back brings my mash from protein rest up to saccharification rest temperature quite nicely, but head retention has been quite poor, so I've been wondering just what to do about it. Decoct from saccharification to mashout instead I'm thinking, these malts don't need a protein rest anyway, it has just been convenient to do it that way but probably at the expense of head retention.

BTW, I've tried many of the spec malts to get that decoction flavour profile, without complete success. They're close but just not quite there, and decoction isn't any better or worse than spec malts, just different IMO.

My 2c... :icon_cheers:

Edit: Plus what 4* says, probably better to aim for 55C rather than 50C in my situation. Very useful reference.

 

[jonocarroll]

Wehn you did the cereal mash it was like a decotion with some malted barley yes? or did you just 'precook/gelatinise' the corn?

Yeah, a couple handfuls of my crushed grain bill in with the polenta, slowly raised to 65*C, held for 15 mins then raised to boiling. Followed the instructions from Chap.16 of How To Brew.

As for the protein rest, the closer it is to 55deg for our malt modification the better as it emphasises medium chained proteins (body and head forming). If it was a protein rest closer to 50 deg he would be degrading the proteins into short chained ones. The benifit from a 55deg rest is increased wort clarity and some FAN, thats about it really.

Ah, that's nice to know then. What's a reasonable time limit for a 55*C rest then? (surely there's some action to cut down the proteins at 55*C).

 

[Fourstar]

Edit: Plus what 4* says, probably better to aim for 55C rather than 50C in my situation. Very useful reference.

braukaiser = ultimate reference for those past JP's theory*.

*Although still a very valuable reference that i use regulary

 

[Fourstar]

Ah, that's nice to know then. What's a reasonable time limit for a 55*C rest then? (surely there's some action to cut down the proteins at 55*C).

As long as its held at as close to 55deg (and not falling) i'd assume 20 minutes.

See http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?t...nfusion_Mashing under 'multi step mashing' for a great description on how to do it with infusions (if you cannot use a directly heated mash tun like myself).

 

[Bribie G]

Hey fellas,

On the subject of Maize/Polenta: I've been looking for the dried version in my local supermarkets, no joy so far, only the pre-cooked stuff in 1kg packets. The next brew i'm doing as a BIAB (cream ale) calls for 1kg of dried polenta. Will I need more of the pre-cooked stuff to get this amount?

Woolies and Coles are bloody hopeless for Polenta, but IGA do the black and gold version for about two bucks for 500g. You don't say where you are from but an "Italian" area such as Lutwyche in Brisbane, Leichhardt in Sydney or whatever would have heaps of it in Woolies or Coles in those areas, and your local IGA could certainly get it in if not currently available in your local store.



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