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The NEIPA thread

Discussion in 'All Grain Brewing' started by devoutharpist, 4/8/19.

 

  1. devoutharpist

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    Posted 4/8/19
    Hello All

    After conversations of this style popping up in other threads, I'm interested in finding out how everyone else had gone with brewing NEIPAs? I'd be keen to see some recipes and get some tips etc. Now that i think about it, there are a lot of issues that pop up with brewing this style... stuck mashes from heavy adjuncts, oxygen exposure, mysterious honey malt, hop burn, hop creep and diacetyl butter bombs.

    Initially i wasn't too impressed with commercial offerings here in Australia and considered it to be a fad style as i know many others did (and still do). But then, and at the risk of a humble brag, i was fortunate enough to try some examples from overseas which seem to be considerably better than most of the ones here. So i decided to try and brew my own up to the standard that i desire (with mixed results)...

    Batch one i followed the Perfectly Average NEIPA recipe (sans the elusive honey malt) and got something that looked the part and tasted the part... except for the caustic hop burn if the bottle wasn't carefully poured to ensure that all the hop particles stayed in the bottle. It oxidised really fast though, so it was only good for a couple weeks.

    Batch two was a mess (following a popular recipe from Homebrewtalk).. stuck mash, fridge died and ruined fermentation. Finished as a sweet mess with no haze, i'm hoping that MAYBE it can age into something drinkable but this might become my first poured homebrew batch.

    I'm hesitant to jump straight back into it given the $$$ that these brews cost with the sheer amount of hops. Might need to find somewhere that sells good bulk prices and then vacuum seal what i don't use. I have slowly been upgrading my equipment and i am in the position where i can do closed transfers to a keg... i just need to get a new fridge so i can actually cold crash and keep the fermentation under control.

    I am thinking something along the lines of (copied out of my WIP beersmith recipe for attempt 3)..

    1.060OG
    77.3% Pale malt
    7.6% Flaked barley
    7.6% Flaked oats
    7.6% White wheat
    (Lots of rice hulls, soaked before adding to the mash - have heard this soaking helps but haven't tried it yet)

    Maybe Citra/Mosaic/Idaho-7 combo. Small FWH addition for a little bit of bitterness, heavy whirlpool hops and then a heavy dry hop at day 2-3 (high krausen). I'm not really a big fan of galaxy, which hurts because it's the cheapest, so i might try I7 as a replacement.

    Yeast wise i am undecided, i have an S04 in the fridge, but i could go London III again. Then i would probably have to make a starter though, haven't really had much luck with liquid yeast.

    end musings.
     
  2. wide eyed and legless

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    Posted 4/8/19
    I have never brewed one or had the inclination to brew one but if I did this is the man I would turn to for advice. Gordon Strong the only 3 time NHC winner and the Grand Poo bah of beer judges in the USA .
    https://byo.com/article/neipa-style-profile/
     
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  3. philrob

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    Posted 4/8/19
    I prefer to drink beer, rather than hop juice.

    I have tasted a whole range of these at my brewclub, and can't for the life of me see the attraction in them. For me, they are totally unbalanced.
     
  4. Ferg

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    Posted 4/8/19
    In terms of a stuck mash I've had massive improvements by conditioning the grain and using malted oats. Last hop combo was Idaho 7, Ekuanot & Amarillo which was really good. Wai-iti is very nice for a dry hop too.
     
  5. devoutharpist

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    Posted 4/8/19
    Is there any difference in mouthfeel etc for using malted oats? Too bad my LHBS doesn't appear to stock them :(
     
  6. goatchop41

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    Posted 4/8/19
    - My first thoughts are that a lot of people seem to make their grain bills too complicated when trying to achieve the haze. I wouldn't really think that the flaked barley is necessary, oats and wheat will do the job. Even then, just bog standard rolled oats from the supermarket will achieve what you want.

    - I personally prefer a more flavourful base malt, and go for a maris otter type for the main malt.

    - I agree with the other user regarding conditioning the malt - it works with wheat too, and will help to avoid stuck mashes/sparges.

    - There are multiple factors that play in to getting the haze, but the most important that I have personally found (from the five NE style beers that I've made) have been the yeast and the dry hop timing. I have made a couple of batches with just gladfield ale malt, with a little bit of vienna and wheat malt (no oats, no 'flaked anything') and still had fantastic haze.
    I use Gigayeast Vermont IPA as my yeast, as it gives the right flavours that I look for, and supposedly biotransforms hop oils. Londan Ale III has great reviews. I did one batch with MJ New World Strong and one with S04, I wasn't happy with either of them at all.
    For dry hop timing - I just throw the first DH in when I pitch my yeast (I found that I got the same results doing this as I did when trying to stuff around with timing it for a certain amount of time after fermentation had started), then the second about 2 days before I keg the beer. My experience was that when I didn't dry hop before/during fermentation, then I got a poor haze.

    - I also strongly believe that you won't make a great NEIPA unless you are altering your water chemistry - at least going 2:1 chloride:sulphate, to help achieve the smooth and full mouthfeel, whilst avoiding accentuating bitterness.

    - Lastly, I go as hard as I can with >5 min/flameout additions, getting pretty much all of my IBUs from it.
     
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  7. Dan Pratt

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    Posted 4/8/19
    100% - agree with this dot point

    - I also strongly believe that you won't make a great NEIPA unless you are altering your water chemistry - at least going 2:1 chloride:sulphate, to help achieve the smooth and full mouthfeel, whilst avoiding accentuating bitterness.
     
    devoutharpist likes this.
  8. devoutharpist

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    Posted 4/8/19
    Lots of good info here, water chemistry is something i have been looking at for a while, but haven't actually taken the plunge. Perhaps it is time, i hope the SA Water reports are accurate.

    Also on the Vermont IPA yeast, a quick Google looks as though there is only one supplier online in Australia. Could be a candidate for an overbuilt starter.

    I also get my grains milled by my LHBS so sadly i can't do conditioning. But i guess that is the idea behind the soaking of the rice hulls before addition as well.

    What sort of mash temps has everyone gone for?
     
  9. Schikitar

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    Posted 5/8/19
    Following this thread as I'll be brewing my first NEIPA in about a month or so (my brother has done quite a few of them). I have a recipe that is based off of a few sources but the inspiration is a beer I had whilst in Vancouver called Colour & Shape by Superflux, it's probably the best NEIPA/Hazy I've ever had! On the yeast front my LHBS has put in a fresh order for this - https://www.whitelabs.com/yeast-bank/wlp067-coastal-haze-ale-yeast-blend - I'll give that a crack, my brother likes London Fog Ale. I'll post my recipe-in-progress a little later down the track for some feedback..
     
  10. devoutharpist

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    Posted 5/8/19
    The other part of recipe formation i have wondered about is getting that slight "orange" colour (ala Treehouse Julius). I assume that this often comes from the honey malt in most homebrew recipes that i see.. so i guess the Aussie equivalent would be to chuck in a little crystal (C10 or C20).
     
  11. Dan Pratt

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    Posted 5/8/19
    Hi,

    A couple of things i have learnt from making the style:
    • yeast strains are over rated.
      • You will get great NEIPA beers with US05, BRY97, English S04 etc, it doesnt have to be liquid vermont or conan
      • Ive tried those liquid ones, aroma and overalll beers same outcome with above mentioned dry strains.
    • Rice hulls not required for < 50% of grain bill oats or wheat
      • with 70% pale or pils, you get plenty of fitration to prevent stuck mash
      • @ 50% for wheat beers its no issue, this style no different
    • Water Matters
      • getting that 2:1 will accentuate mouthfeel and hop flavours
      • 100ppm to 50ppm , 150ppm to 75ppm or as high as 200ppm to 100ppm on the 8% and above
    • Hops matter
      • To get Juicy tropical aroma and flavour you need certian types to get that "biotranformation"
      • Amarillo, Mosaic, Citra, Simcoe, Nelson, Galaxy, Eldorado, Idaho7 etc etc
      • C Hops dont work very well - chinook, columbus, cascade, centennial, crystal, they dont have that linalool to covert
    • Colour Adjustment ( Orange ) - options or all at once
      • Switch up the base malt to Maris Otter instead of pale or pils - will deepen colour, or a 50/50 blend
      • Add 3-5% of either light Crystal, Carared or Melanoiden
      • Vienna and Munich work also
    • Dry Hop timing and amounts
      • 1st round, 12hrs after krausen has formed - i have clear fermentasaurus and can gauge this
        • anywhere from 3g/L to 6g/L
      • 2nd round, when krausen drops out ( gravity usually 5-6 from terminal )
        • anywhere from 5g/l to 10g/L
     
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  12. damohb

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    Posted 5/8/19
    hill farmstead, treehouse and trillium don't use any oats or flaked adjuncts in their NEIPAs, and they are known for their mouthfeel
     
  13. hoppy2B

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    Posted 5/8/19
    I personally don't subscribe to the idea of trying to achieve haze by adding oats and wheat to the grain bill. From what I have read, I was under the impression that oats are good for yeast health and their addition has always resulted in the clearest beers I have ever made. I think sulphates also help to clear beer for the same reason, they're good for yeast health.

    I have no trouble achieving haze by simply adding lots of hops late. If I do decide to start dry hopping again I will use pellets because I expect that the pressing process during manufacturing tends to kill any microbes present, and should result in less likelihood of infection. I find pellets to be kind of rank compared to whole cones though. So I guess it's best not to leave them in very long.

    I did notice that Beerbelly sell Galaxy by the kilogram. It's a pity you aren't too keen on them devoutharpist. Maybe you could ask them if they have other varieties for sale by the kilo at a reduced rate. Otherwise, maybe you could grow some hops. I grow most of mine.
     
  14. devoutharpist

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    Posted 5/8/19
    Thanks for the learnings, this is the sort of information i am after. When dry hopping (in particular the later addition), do you do anything to avoid oxidation? Unless you are saving the trub bottle from the fermentasaurus for the final addition? Oh... and any chance of a photo of any of your NEIPA for interests sake?

    Might give them a go, they have been pretty responsive and helpful in the past. I do actually have four rhizomes about to hit their third season, but none of them are overly appropriate for the style (and i had a horrible year last year, not sure what it was but i had about half the harvest of the year before).
     
  15. goatchop41

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    Posted 5/8/19
    They may make a decent NEIPA, but they definitely don't make a great NEIPA like those liquids do. Perhaps you used them at a less than optimal temp if you didn't feel that the liquid yeasts made a difference?

    Have you tried dry hopping when pitching?
     
  16. goatchop41

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    Posted 5/8/19
    P.S. There is some research that has shown that hop oil extraction when dry hopping seem to essentially plateau at about 8g/L. Do with that info what you will
     
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  17. Company of one

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    Posted 6/8/19
    Big tick for London Fog in a NEIPA.
     
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  18. Dan Pratt

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    Posted 6/8/19
    see below
     
  19. Dan Pratt

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    Posted 6/8/19
    Adding the 2nd round of hops at when the krausen falls out typically the FV is full of C02 ( fermentasaurus ) and opeing the lid to add hops has not cuased any issues.

    If i miss that windo by a day or 2 and feel the co2 level would be much lower, i add c02 through the lid port then open and reflush.

    I will chase up some photos of my Hazy IPAs for you
     
  20. Dan Pratt

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    Posted 6/8/19
    Maybe the temp was not high enough to drive those esters out, ferment at 19c so maybe. But to say they are decent, is an understatement, lol.

    Dry hopping added at time of pitching, not yet. have you found its better for that bio transformation or just doing it becuase the lid is open?
     

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