Can u Brew With Un-Malted Barley

[scomet]

Sorry, this is a rhetorical question to which I thought the answer was a simple NO! Well, apparently you can. I just drank these three cans of beer from Lucky Bay Brewing in Esperance WA and they tasted very nice, here are the brewery details. https://www.luckybaybrewing.com.au

I drank the Lockdown Dark Lager without knowing it used un-malted (70% raw) barley, clean crisp very well made nice and dry maybe short of a bit of body. I’m looking forward to drinking lots of this at the brewery this summer.

To top this off I just heard from the assistant brewers Mum the Lock Down Dark just won Australias best Draught Lager… I guess they must be on to something.

https://www.brewsnews.com.au/2020/08/22/blasta-wins-big-at-perth-royal-beer-awards/

 

[MHB]

Yes you can - if you have the right enzyme preparations and very good temperature control, I'm talking Braumeister good would be a decent starting point.
You need the enzymes to do the jobs that are normally done during malting. Exogenous Enzyme preparations will include Glucanase, a couple of Proteases and ideally both Amylases.
Mashing is usually in the 4-6 hour time frame, start around 40oC and then it will be a series of steps (the classics) but for a lot longer than.
Hard to get the industrial premixed enzymes in small quantities, and they are also quite expensive as is usable barley (you need the same low protein barley that would normally be malted) on a bag basis. Raw barley is way cheaper (like $1200-1500/Ton) than malt if you are buying by the truck load, not so much by the bag.

So it isn't something to do to save time, certainly not going to save much money at a small scale, you need very good (expensive) equipment and the consensus is that the beer isn't too bad, not as good as all malt but not too bad...
Mark

 

[clickeral]

Yes you can - if you have the right enzyme preparations and very good temperature control, I'm talking Braumeister good would be a decent starting point.
You need the enzymes to do the jobs that are normally done during malting. Exogenous Enzyme preparations will include Glucanase, a couple of Proteases and ideally both Amylases.
Mashing is usually in the 4-6 hour time frame, start around 40oC and then it will be a series of steps (the classics) but for a lot longer than.
Hard to get the industrial premixed enzymes in small quantities, and they are also quite expensive as is usable barley (you need the same low protein barley that would normally be malted) on a bag basis. Raw barley is way cheaper (like $1200-1500/Ton) than malt if you are buying by the truck load, not so much by the bag.

So it isn't something to do to save time, certainly not going to save much money at a small scale, you need very good (expensive) equipment and the consensus is that the beer isn't too bad, not as good as all malt but not too bad...
Mark

I could be wrong but I thought most malt had enough diastatic power to convert itself and an amount of unmalted (raw grain)

Ideally 30 degreess lintner per 450g to convert

Malt Degrees Lintner


Briess Red Wheat Malt 180
Briess White Wheat Malt 160
Briess Two-Row Malt 140
Briess Pilsen Malt 140
Briess Vienna Malt 130
Briess Rye Malt 105
Briess Munich Malt 10L 40
Briess Caramel 20-120 0
Briess Chocolate Malt 0

Grain Type	Diastatic Power in Degrees Lintner​
2-Row Pale Malt	110​
6-Row Pale Malt	150​
Highly modified Pilsner Malt	125​
Malted Wheat	120​
Vienna Malt	100​
Munich Malt	70​
Crystal Malt	0​
Unmalted Wheat	0​
Chocolate malt, roast barley	0​
Unmalted Adjunct grains (rice, corn)	0​

So 1kg of Pilsner can convert roughly another 1kg of unmalted grain

 

[butisitart]

and the obvious spin-off from there is, where do you use unmalted wheat?? most brewshops seem to carry joe white's unmalted, but never seen it in a recipe. 300g in a 23L for stability?? no idea.
ok, got me. i rarely look at recipes.

 

[MashBasher]

where do you use unmalted wheat??

One example of a use for unmalted (i.e., raw) wheat is Belgian Wit (white) beer. Hoegaarden Wit is the classic.

This style was originally a farmhouse beer. So it's... um , robust. To the point of being agricultural. Use whatever a typical Belgian farmer might have laying around in early summer. Whatever that may be.

A typical recipe formulation might go something like:

50% Pilsner malt
45% raw wheat, crushed.
5% Rolled Oats

Usually quite strong, at least 5%. Add some well oxidised hops (something European) for preservative power at the start of the boil. Also dried Seville orange peel for bitterness plus a truckload of crushed coriander seed for flavour towards the end.

The Pils malt has enough diastatic horsepower to convert the wheat, usually. The raw wheat gelatinises (goes gloopy) at mash temps so the malt enzymes can get in there. Raw wheat is a bugger to crush though. Grown men have cried trying. (Not Belgian farmers obviously, who are endowed with outstanding muscular prowess courtesy of all those mussels and frites.)

There are a couple of Wit yeasts around now, including a dry one. Basically a wheat beer type phenolic yeast with a bit less cloves and more nanas.

I like the style a lot, personally. Have made and drunk a ton of it over the years. Perfect for summer. Oranges, bananas and beer. Only the Belgique could come up with it. All part of why Belgium is Disneyland for beer lovers.

Gezondheid!

 

[MHB]

I could be wrong but I thought most malt had enough diastatic power to convert itself and an amount of unmalted (raw grain)

Ideally 30 degreess lintner per 450g to convert

Malt Degrees Lintner


Briess Red Wheat Malt 180
Briess White Wheat Malt 160
Briess Two-Row Malt 140
Briess Pilsen Malt 140
Briess Vienna Malt 130
Briess Rye Malt 105
Briess Munich Malt 10L 40
Briess Caramel 20-120 0
Briess Chocolate Malt 0

Grain Type	Diastatic Power in Degrees Lintner​
2-Row Pale Malt	110​
6-Row Pale Malt	150​
Highly modified Pilsner Malt	125​
Malted Wheat	120​
Vienna Malt	100​
Munich Malt	70​
Crystal Malt	0​
Unmalted Wheat	0​
Chocolate malt, roast barley	0​
Unmalted Adjunct grains (rice, corn)	0​

So 1kg of Pilsner can convert roughly another 1kg of unmalted grain

Apart from the fact that that wasn't the question asked "Can u Brew With Un-Malted Barley"

Sort of maybe, from the table you have (I think from Briess) you can see that as colour goes up enzyme activity goes down. So just looking at Pale Base Malts.
There is a metric unit for enzyme activity, its called Windisch-Kolbach (oWK) but lets stay in Linter.
Notice that the highest DP malt is 6-Row, trade of is that you get too much Protein (remember enzymes are proteins) they also have less starch to husk (lower yields) are smaller and harder to crush consistently in two roller mills so its best used in big (really big) breweries where it is diluted with adjunct to get the protein down into usable ranges.
To use it effectively you need to cook your adjunct (look up cereal cooking) the adjunct and usually about 10% malt is added to a kettle, heated slowly to a boil, then boiled for 15-20 minutes then pumped over into the mash mixer with the malt at the start of mashing. If you don't gelatinise the adjunct the enzymes in the malt cant get at the starch and digest it and you get very little extract from the adjunct.
In a really big purpose built brewery you might use 40% adjunct (if your name is Bud, Millers...). Theory aside, which says you might be able to use 60% adjunct, it would take a very brave and patient brewer to go over 40%.

The alternative is to use pregelatinised adjunct (Flaked, Torrified, Micronised...) which can be added directly to the mash, but then you are paying a shed load more than you would be for raw adjunct.

Note that its pretty hard to get 6-Row outside north America, no-one else really wants to use it. But the same applies to using 2-Row malts, there is just a bit less DP to work with.

Setting up to use large amounts of un-malted adjunct is neither inexpensive nor time saving at a small scale. According to most beer judges the beer isn't as good. So I would have to wonder why anyone would bother.
I did a bunch of research a few years ago mostly focusing on producing Gluten free beer from Sorghum. Same (nearly) enzymes and processes.
Mark

 

[MHB]

and the obvious spin-off from there is, where do you use unmalted wheat?? most brewshops seem to carry joe white's unmalted, but never seen it in a recipe. 300g in a 23L for stability?? no idea.
ok, got me. i rarely look at recipes.

In Belgian Wit beers!
M

 

[butisitart]

Mashbasher said: Use whatever a typical Belgian farmer might have laying around in early summer. Whatever that may be.
Also dried Seville orange peel for bitterness plus a truckload of crushed coriander seed for flavour towards the end.

i used to wonder why Belgian farmers used to stand around waist deep in coriander seeds that were just lying around. scratching their heads, wondering what to do with them. makes sense. old tractor parts, i'm starting to get the flavour profile. yum.

 

[butisitart]

In Belgian Wit beers!
M

thanks, done German wheats, interested in trying a Belgian Wit, but after mashbasher's comments, might get it shop milled.

 

[sp0rk]

Hard to get the industrial premixed enzymes in small quantities

What are your thoughts on the SEBSTAR range of enzymes?

 

[MHB]

What are your thoughts on the SEBSTAR range of enzymes?

Just did a quick Google (don't know the company). Looks like most of what they have is Alpha Amylase (same as dry enzyme from your LHBS) some B-Glucanase and another one that is a bit of a super Bet Amylase that will make a lot more fermentable sugars rather than higher saccharides. Really designed for distilling washes where the only thing that counts is Ethanol potential.
Hasn't got any proteases so its not the gear for beer.
Try looking for Promalt looks like Ibrew has some at a reasonable price, but don't think its worth your effort.

thanks, done german wheats, interested in trying a belgian witt, but after mashbasher's comments, might get it shop milled.

I would its hard as ball bearings. I would look for a good Hoegaarden recipe or similar. In spite of the above go easy on both the Coriander and Curacao Orange, they are a note not a bludgeon, that's for mashbashers.
Mark

 

[butisitart]

Just did a quick Google (don't know the company). Looks like most of what they have is Alpha Amylase (same as dry enzyme from your LHBS) some B-Glucanase and another one that is a bit of a super Bet Amylase that will make a lot more fermentable sugars rather than higher saccharides. Really designed for distilling washes where the only thing that counts is Ethanol potential.
Hasn't got any proteases so its not the gear for beer.
Try looking for Promalt looks like Ibrew has some at a reasonable price, but don't think its worth your effort.


I would its hard as ball bearings. I would look for a good Hoegaarden recipe or similar. In spite of the above go easy on both the Coriander and Curacao Orange, they are a note not a bludgeon, that's for mashbashers.
Mark

i'm not overly adventurous on spice add ins. i'm 103 years old, don't go for that mamby pamby too much. bingle berries from the wetlands of zanzibar, dakhra husks from the slopes of bhutan. nah, leave it for fashionable youngsters. mind you, a bit of licorice in my porters and stouts drives my italian friends nuts. you can become rather popular with the lady folk

 

[kadmium]

i'm not overly adventurous on spice add ins. i'm 103 years old, don't go for that mamby pamby too much. bingle berries from the wetlands of zanzibar, dakhra husks from the slopes of bhutan. nah, leave it for fashionable youngsters. mind you, a bit of licorice in my porters and stouts drives my italian friends nuts. you can become rather popular with the lady folk

Oh man. Licorice in stout. My wife is Dutch she would go apeshit for it. Could you share a recipe somewhere?

Sorry for off topic

 

[butisitart]

Oh man. Licorice in stout. My wife is Dutch she would go apeshit for it. Could you share a recipe somewhere?

Sorry for off topic

not hard - 8-10 ml licorice extract into any porter-stout-bock (something dark, a bit malty). just tip it in at the start of ferment.
they're pretty yummy, especially in winter. my first wife was spanish (still is, probably) - wasn't up for licorice. partner of 19 years is korean/japanese. she thinks licorice is completely disgusting, so i have to drink it all.
haven't tried fresh licorice root - not always available, but my new brew shop carries it, so on the radar to try that.
i used to hang out in hilversum a bit, and cycle to amsfoort, utrecht etc. you know you're going uphill when it gets a bit harder to pedal. lovely people, great country.

 

[dkril]

The enzymes can be gotten from other sources too.

A few years ago I got to try a brew made with NO malted grains . The enzymes came from bananas added to the mash , which from memory took about 24 hours !

The resulting brew tasted....of bananas.

 

[butisitart]

The enzymes can be gotten from other sources too.

A few years ago I got to try a brew made with NO malted grains . The enzymes came from bananas added to the mash , which from memory took about 24 hours !

The resulting brew tasted....of bananas.

memories haha, i drank coconut beer in this little backwater village in malaysia once. tasted....of coconut. probably a similar process. got absolutely hammered. never gone in search of it since

 

[MHB]

In the Andes chewed corn (maize) is spat into a bucket then inoculated with the poo of a breast feed baby.
The lengths people will go to to get pissed never ceases to amaze me.
I'm so happy I can get good malt hops and yeast
Mark

 

[butisitart]

In the Andes chewed corn (maize) is spat into a bucket then inoculated with the poo of a breast feed baby.
The lengths people will go to to get pissed never ceases to amaze me.
I'm so happy I can get good malt hops and yeast
Mark

noooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[butisitart]

noooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!

the worst i've done was wine from the side of teide - 3800m volcano in the canary islands. glass 1 reeks of rotten egg gas from the volcanic soil. glass 4 reeks of rotten egg gas as you begin sweating and try to establish the horizon. mine host (indigenous guanches) will cheerily tell you that this is the finest beverage in the world as they pour glass 9, which reeks of rotten egg gas. unlike coolibah, which at least has the decency to taste neutral after glass 6

 

[yankinoz]

In the Andes chewed corn (maize) is spat into a bucket then inoculated with the poo of a breast feed baby.
The lengths people will go to to get pissed never ceases to amaze me.
I'm so happy I can get good malt hops and yeast
Mark

I've known anthropologists who've spent long times in Andean villages. The saliva part is well known, but no one ever mentioned baby poo. Chicha is also made in the villages from malted corn, like the commercial versions.