Brewzilla vs Guten

[Cloud Surfer]

Yeah my biggest regret it going the 40 over 50. Should have gone more room, so I think 60L ish is the way to go.

Guten also comes with distillation options and I do like the fit and finish of the Guten over the BZ but have not seen the latest model BZ which I have heard good things about.

It's kind of like a Ford vs Holden and this stage.

To @Cloud Surfer you will enjoy the nuances of AG I am certain.

And, in honour of your latest threads and your infectious love of big beers I'm putting down a Yuge RIS in a week or so.

Will let you know how it goes on a 40L

I hope you post about your RIS brew. I’m always keen to hear other people’s big beer stories.

 

[ozdevil]

@Cloud Surfer

We was'nt trying to attack MHB mate, i know i wasnt trying to attack him

it was'nt so much suggesting the BENTLY of All in Systems

it was more to do how he suggested it made better beer over the guten and Brewzilla

even yourself said the end result is the same regardless on what system you brewed it on


my regret would have been going for the grainfather system and not allowing my to purchase anything bigger and limiting my brewing experience

as i have both brewzilla's 35l and 65l so i can actaully brew 2 brews at once if need to

I am not intending on going to spirits so i wont bothering to buy the parts needed for that

i think its horse for course on what you choose between guten or brewzilla

guten may come with the stainless steel top where as brewzilla is glass

i find the glass option is good as i dont have to take the lid off during the mash to see whats going on..

i think the real downside is there is no sight glass like the guten you need purchase seperatly


both guten and brewzilla screens are at the bottom of the urns so both bending or lying down to change things if you dont use the program functions

either product i think you would be more then happy with

 

[Meddo]

This is getting silly, again I find myself coming to the defence of Mark because some people need to justify their own decisions and seemingly willfully misinterpret other points of view - and then attack the man.

Of course a Braumeister and a Guten or Brewzilla will make different beer to each other. Whether your palette is good enough to tell the difference is the question (mine probably isn't), but they do use different heating elements (exposed vs concealed, and different Watt densities), different recirculation mechanisms, different pumps (including pump accessibility), different control systems (PID vs thermostat), different malt pipe designs. All these things have an impact on the finished wort, to greater or lesser extents. Mark's view is that those differences weigh in the advantage of the Braumeister and that's fair enough - personally I think they both have their pros and cons that probably balance reasonably well (aside from the Braumeister's LoDO capability if you subscribe to that approach) but I've done a mere 42 brews in my time and have a fraction of Mark's knowledge so at the very least I'm going to give his opinion the consideration it deserves.

There's a lot of straw man arguments going on claiming that he said there were significant differences in the beer produced - please re-read because he did NOT say that. The significant differences he mentioned in relation to justifying the cost are "quality, the management system and reliability". There was also nothing aggressive, patronising or dismissive in his posts.

I'm not sure how coherent my own argument is - it's the first day of holidays, summer ale kegging day, and I've probably had a couple more "samples" than I've been counting, but I get annoyed when people attack one of the few authoritative voices left on this platform for no good reason.

 

[RRising]

Honest question... What does the Braumeister do or does differently than a Guten, BZ or even Grainfather that warrants its extreme price tag?

 

[Meddo]

Honest question... What does the Braumeister do or does differently than a Guten, BZ or even Grainfather that warrants its extreme price tag?

My previous post mentions a few of the differences. Whether they justify the price difference - not in my view but we've all got different budgets. Whether they result in a better system, money no object - not sure, never brewed on a Braumeister, but I suspect very slightly yes. The main points in the BM's favour that I can see from a distance are a more easily dismantled pump for cleaning (I'm calling ******** if anyone thinks the BZ pump can be CIPed effectively), a PID controller, no danger of dry-firing elements, and a LoDO kit. For the BZ/Guten - less crud should get washed back into the kettle when rinsing/sparging (due to direction of recirculation flow through the malt pipe), no danger of bending screens or pumping grain into the kettle if that happens, and more easily cleaned elements (although the seam at the base of the vessel is a pain). No comment on build quality as I've never gone hands on with a BM.

My view is that - depending on what's important to you - there's flaws in the designs of all single vessel systems commercially available - BrewTools is the "best" I suspect but there's still room for improvement.

 

[ozdevil]

My previous post mentions a few of the differences. Whether they justify the price difference - not in my view but we've all got different budgets. Whether they result in a better system, money no object - not sure, never brewed on a Braumeister, but I suspect very slightly yes. The main points in the BM's favour that I can see from a distance are a more easily dismantled pump for cleaning (I'm calling ******** if anyone thinks the BZ pump can be CIPed effectively), a PID controller, no danger of dry-firing elements, and a LoDO kit. For the BZ/Guten - less crud should get washed back into the kettle when rinsing/sparging (due to direction of recirculation flow through the malt pipe), no danger of bending screens or pumping grain into the kettle if that happens, and more easily cleaned elements (although the seam at the base of the vessel is a pain). No comment on build quality as I've never gone hands on with a BM.

My view is that - depending on what's important to you - there's flaws in the designs of all single vessel systems commercially available - BrewTools is the "best" I suspect but there's still room for improvement.

I wasnt trying to attack Mark meddo wether others where thats not for me to say

to say something makes better beer i think thats crap statement to make

if it was quality of the product no arguement from me

i only buy what i can afford

i could go buy a bently tommorow but i would most likey go bankrupt in the process
where i can go my datsun 120y 1974 and it still gets me there the same on 4 wheels just dont have the comforts of a bently

do you think you wont feel that pot hole in the road from the bently to the datsun 120y? you will still feel it no difference

the beer is the same whether i brew in the BM , BZ,Guten,grainfather, Brewtools

I have drank some great extract beer that you could actually market and sell to some brilliant all grain brews that have been made on a shoe string budget

i just think if there is any difference to detect between a bm making better beer then the others it would be barely noticeable and most wouldnt even pick it

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Honest question... What does the Braumeister do or does differently than a Guten, BZ or even Grainfather that warrants its extreme price tag?

Has a pump rest every 15 minutes, imagine a powerful pump forcing the grain against the top screens, stopping for a few minutes for the grain to fall, then starts again. This is virtually stirring the grain bed. Germans don't program anything without reason, and that is the only reason breaking the hot and cold spots in the mash. Increasing efficiency I don't know. What I do know is that stirring the mash in a Guten does increase efficiency slightly.
The other thing is the gauge of the stainless steel used is thicker than that of the Chinese models, like comparing a Tiger Tank to an armoured personnel carrier.

 

[kadmium]

This is getting silly, again I find myself coming to the defence of Mark because some people need to justify their own decisions and seemingly willfully misinterpret other points of view - and then attack the man.

Of course a Braumeister and a Guten or Brewzilla will make different beer to each other. Whether your palette is good enough to tell the difference is the question (mine probably isn't), but they do use different heating elements (exposed vs concealed, and different Watt densities), different recirculation mechanisms, different pumps (including pump accessibility), different control systems (PID vs thermostat), different malt pipe designs. All these things have an impact on the finished wort, to greater or lesser extents. Mark's view is that those differences weigh in the advantage of the Braumeister and that's fair enough - personally I think they both have their pros and cons that probably balance reasonably well (aside from the Braumeister's LoDO capability if you subscribe to that approach) but I've done a mere 42 brews in my time and have a fraction of Mark's knowledge so at the very least I'm going to give his opinion the consideration it deserves.

There's a lot of straw man arguments going on claiming that he said there were significant differences in the beer produced - please re-read because he did NOT say that. The significant differences he mentioned in relation to justifying the cost are "quality, the management system and reliability". There was also nothing aggressive, patronising or dismissive in his posts.

I'm not sure how coherent my own argument is - it's the first day of holidays, summer ale kegging day, and I've probably had a couple more "samples" than I've been counting, but I get annoyed when people attack one of the few authoritative voices left on this platform for no good reason.

I think the one making a strawman is you buddy. I didn't attack MHB personally, other than to be incredulous that one could state they can taste the difference between a beer brewed in a BM and one brewed in a Brewzilla.

I didn't realise my Wort was sentient and knew that it was going through a "different pump and malt pipe" and magically changes. For a bloke who goes to the nth degree to be scientific, that would be a strange argument to mount. But he didn't even make that argument. He stated that the price of a BM justifies itself because the beer is better.

That is a dangerous slope, especially on a public forum trying to attract new brewers. Exclusivity and insinuating that people need to spend 4k on a single vessel system to produce better beer is ridiculous. I'm not saying the person who stated it is, simply the statement.

If you or others feel that I attacked him personally then I am sorry. But I think comments that invite that sort of thinking need to be addressed for the above reasons.

If you then want to come on the forum and accuse people of attacking while puffing your chest so that others will notice you, that's your issue to deal with. But the fact remains that the chances of someone tasting the difference in two identical beers brewed on either a Guten, BZ, BM or grain father are so far removed I would liquidate my assets and buy lotto tickets before believing it. Which is what I would need to do before I could brew good beer apparently.

 

[MHB]

Thankyou Meddo
And yes I agree there are problems (design flaws) with all the single vessel systems I have seen, to me they all represent a compromise, including the Braumeister.

Kadmium
I do take exception to you creating comments for me, then calling me a liar or full of BS for those alleged comments.
By all means read what I say, quote what I say, even disagree with it, argue about it, that's fine. Not liking what I say, making up what you think it means, ascribing it to me, isn't!

I made a suggestion to someone who I think could afford whatever system he chooses were he so inclined, that its worth looking at a Braumeister, that's all. At no point did I comment on the beer that can be made on any of the systems.
Having looked at and having brewed on one version or another of the systems mentioned above (and a few not discussed) I found the Braumeister best suited my needs and was willing to pay the extra. Again, that's all.

Ozdevil
Yes it was a personal attack, you made the assumptions about Cloud Surfers budget, not me
Based on your assumptions, you start casting aspersions on my character...

Well the pair of you can go to hell.

Honest question... What does the Braumeister do or does differently than a Guten, BZ or even Grainfather that warrants its extreme price tag?

If you want to discuss this further, please open a new thread. Would be happy to engage, but not in this thread I'm out of it

OK, let's leave the personal arguments alone, and get back to discussing the original topic, please. I don't wish to lock the thread, but will do so if necessary.

Good call
Mark

 

[MHB]

Double Post Deleted
Still out of here
Mark

 

[Meddo]

I wasnt trying to attack Mark meddo wether others where thats not for me to say

to say something makes better beer i think thats crap statement to make

if it was quality of the product no arguement from me

i only buy what i can afford

i could go buy a bently tommorow but i would most likey go bankrupt in the process
where i can go my datsun 120y 1974 and it still gets me there the same on 4 wheels just dont have the comforts of a bently

do you think you wont feel that pot hole in the road from the bently to the datsun 120y? you will still feel it no difference

the beer is the same whether i brew in the BM , BZ,Guten,grainfather, Brewtools

I have drank some great extract beer that you could actually market and sell to some brilliant all grain brews that have been made on a shoe string budget

i just think if there is any difference to detect between a bm making better beer then the others it would be barely noticeable and most wouldnt even pick it

I disagree. The number of factors that go into producing wort (and hence into beer) are plentiful, and there's been plenty of science done over the years as to how different parameters affect the result. Different systems may (do) affect those parameters differently, and hence will produce different beers. As an example, does a step mash produce a different beer than a single infusion? Yes, of course. Does a well-tuned PID deliver tighter control of step mash temperature than a thermostat control? Yes, absolutely. Is a tightly controlled step mash going to deliver a "better" beer? In some cases yes, in some cases no, but there's not likely to be a negative outcome if done properly. But the tightly controlled PID recirculating system can adhere to designed recipes much more effectively than a single-infusion, multi-infusion, decoction or thermostat-controlled recirculating system, and loses nothing in comparison (maybe decoction in some aspects, but that's a different kettle of wort).

Now, how many of us hobby homebrewers repeat the same recipe often enough, or have finely-tuned enough palettes, or dial in and measure against our recipe design well enough to tell the difference? Probably not many of us, but that doesn't mean a difference isn't there. Is the Braumeister specifically going to produce "better" beer than a BZ or Guten, all other things being equal? I suspect not, or only very slightly, because I think it's strengths are fairly well balanced by those of the BZ/G, but that doesn't mean that the premise is flawed and worthy of scorn or being labelled "crap".

Just because one person can produce a better beer from a kit and kilo than another person can with a top of the line (according to your metric of choice) system doesn't mean there's no difference in the system, because the hardware's not the only factor. Brewer skill, ingredients and technique are probably more influential than hardware, but they all affect the final result.

I'm not even going to touch the straw man Bentley vs Datsun.

 

[kadmium]

Me too, and if I agreed that the outcomes were the same I would have gone with a cheaper option.
Mark

The outcome of producing wort would be what comes from the brewing system. Your words not mine.

Not "the experience" or "build quality" or your favourite "Hyundai bad Porsche good" analogy.

The -outcome- is not the same on a BM vs a Guten or BZ.

So there, I quoted you, and don't agree with the statement.

Edit: I Made a smart ass remark. Not needed. Edited it out.

 

[kadmium]

Well the pair of you can go to hell.


If you want to discuss this further, please open a new thread. Would be happy to engage, but not in this thread I'm out of it

Good call
Mark

Great job keeping personal attacks out of it there buddy.

 

[kadmium]

I disagree. The number of factors that go into producing wort (and hence into beer) are plentiful, and there's been plenty of science done over the years as to how different parameters affect the result. Different systems may (do) affect those parameters differently, and hence will produce different beers. As an example, does a step mash produce a different beer than a single infusion? Yes, of course. Does a well-tuned PID deliver tighter control of step mash temperature than a thermostat control? Yes, absolutely. Is a tightly controlled step mash going to deliver a "better" beer? In some cases yes, in some cases no, but there's not likely to be a negative outcome if done properly. But the tightly controlled PID recirculating system can adhere to designed recipes much more effectively than a single-infusion, multi-infusion, decoction or thermostat-controlled recirculating system, and loses nothing in comparison (maybe decoction in some aspects, but that's a different kettle of wort).

Now, how many of us hobby homebrewers repeat the same recipe often enough, or have finely-tuned enough palettes, or dial in and measure against our recipe design well enough to tell the difference? Probably not many of us, but that doesn't mean a difference isn't there. Is the Braumeister specifically going to produce "better" beer than a BZ or Guten, all other things being equal? I suspect not, or only very slightly, because I think it's strengths are fairly well balanced by those of the BZ/G, but that doesn't mean that the premise is flawed and worthy of scorn or being labelled "crap".

Just because one person can produce a better beer from a kit and kilo than another person can with a top of the line (according to your metric of choice) system doesn't mean there's no difference in the system, because the hardware's not the only factor. Brewer skill, ingredients and technique are probably more influential than hardware, but they all affect the final result.

I'm not even going to touch the straw man Bentley vs Datsun.

All well and good but I was there when MHB tore shreds of KK about their "unscientific" approach to their taste tests for their PET kegs. I mean he really was pretty off the nose about it for no reason. Then makes a vague statement that a BM produces better beer. I better see a PHD doctorate, in a scientific journal with I dependant testing on his specific tasting abilities with multiple peer reviewed articles on HOW the BM makes better beer. Because really that's what's needed if you start casting stones and live in a glass house or something along those lines.

 

[ozdevil]

look i think we are getting know where here and is ruining Cloud surfers origional post about gutens and Brewzilla's specially when Braumeister was never given a thought and was only thought of by MHB in which nothing wrong with that at all considering cloud surfer and MHB have been talking on the sides

None of us new that by the way we read the post here.

we me have read the wrong intentions of MHB

I never ment anything personnel to anyone and not intentionally

I am not always right and nor is anyone else

I apologise Cloud surfer that i have detracted from your origional post and to align myself with a braumeister arguement which has nothi9ng to do with this thread whatsoever


your choice on what you purchase mate and i wish you happy brewing in whatever vessel you choose mate and will be happy to read about your enjoyment


@All i dont respond to posts to be personnel unless i am provoked

I was not provoked here just gave my thoughts in which @MHB has taken it personnelly and i am sure MHB is a great person with alot of smarts

we all dont have to agree its part of life

I hope 1 day i can afford a BM just to say hey @MDH ya spot on man and i was wrong ya remember that post all those years go about cloud surfer asking about BZ/gutens


nothing would please me better


if i was to have ago at anyone personelly it will never be done on a public forum i will always come to you in a private message and tell ya personnely what my issues is


this is my last post towards this thread unless i can add to the O.P posts about the subject matter

 

[Dozer71]

Guten also comes with distillation options and I do like the fit and finish of the Guten over the BZ but have not seen the latest model BZ which I have heard good things about.

I believe the brezilla has the distillation option with the alcoengine (kegland), not the the guten. I have the guten and did consider distillation so looked at the bz at the time but realised I didn't need that much extra alcohol at home.

 

[philrob]

We've gone far enough. All pros and cons of the various systems have been exhausted.
I'm closing the thread before it goes further downhill.